Lumen - let the conversation begin 😋

[ctviggen]

When Masterjohn claims that our ancestors were not in ketosis most of the time, he has to explain what exactly they ate as an alternative to fat/protein.

Even now, the Sami people (if they adhere to tradition) eat mainly reindeer, and only eat berries and roots for a short period, to fatten up for the winter. The vast majority of time, they will be in ketosis.

[amwassil]

What if, as I often do, you eat a higher percentage of protein (oh the horror!) rather than fat. That is, a “high” protein, “low(er)” fat diet? And then compare that with lower protein, higher fat? If the same RER is achieved, does this mean I’m burning more body fat while eating lower fat?

I’m also wondering about the effect of protein/amino acid oxidation on RER. For that matter, also ethanol. This might be relevant to carbs, amino and fatty acids:

Tracking the oxidative kinetics of carbohydrates, amino acids and fatty acids...

Apparently, ethanol does not oxidize to CO₂ but to aldehyde and H₂O. If so then it would not affect RER. Yet, I find that hard to accept. Something must happen to RER when you’re consuming ethanol. Maybe? Another question that Lumen may answer.

[jennasaurus]

One thing that stood out in looking through that study was this: “McCloy et al. (McCloy et al., 2004) found the cumulative oxidation of exogenous oleate and linolenate in humans to be 62% higher than exogenous linoleic acid.” This doesn’t have anything to do with protein, but seems to further support what we already know about linoleic acid - that it’s bad, oxidizes slower than other fats, and probably stays around in the body longer.

My primary interest in Lumen would be to figure out if and when my body is producing amounts of endogenous glucose that are enough to trigger an insulin response that could switch me from burning fat to burning glucose. I think many here would agree that if they were to eat 60 grams of carbs that could trigger enough of an insulin response to switch their body from burning fat to glucose. I don’t have any real proof of this, but I’m fairly certain that the body can create at least 60 grams of endogenous glucose in a day and probably much more. Why would the body do this if it has plenty of fat to burn? One reason could be in response to inflammation. It’s my understanding that an inflammatory response creates a demand for glucose. I have been obsessed with this topic because I think that having a better understanding of how certain immune responses affect metabolism could help answer a lot of my questions. For example, why do people with type 2 diabetes produce 3x more glucose than non-diabetic people? Why does 20 grams of carbs seem to be the limit when the brain requires probably around 40 grams per day even in ketosis? Is overeating carbs for an extended period of time really the main underlying cause of insulin resistance?

[AuntJane]

I think it’s just as likely that being in a constant state of ketosis might have made it hard to hold on to body fat, which would be bad in such a cold environment.

I think that makes a lot of sense!

Looks like Lumen: Hack your metabolism & lose weight is about to ship your rewards soon!

OMG you still haven’t gotten that yet???

I’m also wondering about the effect of protein/amino acid oxidation on RER.

What is RER?

@jennasaurus good questions!

[ctviggen]

For example, why do people with type 2 diabetes produce 3x more glucose than non-diabetic people? Why does 20 grams of carbs seem to be the limit when the brain requires probably around 40 grams per day even in ketosis? Is overeating carbs for an extended period of time really the main underlying cause of insulin resistance?

I heard a discussion where the two people were theorizing that glucagon and not insulin was supposed to be the body’s blood sugar control system. The reason we’re using insulin is because we’re eating too many carbs. So, if diabetics can produce glucagon but not insulin, glucagon’s job is to raise blood sugar. Without a counteracting effect from insulin, you get higher blood sugar.

No one really knows whether 20 grams is a limit. I don’t count, but there are days I know get over 20 grams yet am still in ketosis. It depends on exercise, etc. I think 20 is used because if you overshoot, you should still be in ketosis. If you use 50 (which some people consider the actual limit), it’s easy to overshoot.

As for overeating carbs, it could be. But PUFAs have an effect, too. The term “insulin resistance” is a poorly defined term. The primary drivers of “insulin resistance” are the liver and pancreas. But the fat cells themselves can be insulin resistant or insulin sensitive. And those have an effect on the body too.

Concerning this, see this conversation at Hyperlipid:

Of mice and men

He thinks if you eat super high carb, low fat, there’s no issue. If you eat super low carb, high fat, there’s no issue. But there’s a range with carbs + fat that’s an issue.

[CFLBob]

The term “insulin resistance” is a poorly defined term.

I think this is why there’s a move to saying hyperinsulinemia - “high insulin in the blood” - instead of insulin resistance. As you were saying over in your thread on your N=1 on trying higher levels of fat, there are times we want insulin resistance. In that case, we want our fat cells to be resistant to insulin to keep them from storing more fat.

Very interesting N=1 trying to test that Sat Fat causes weight loss

Here’s a very interesting test of Peter (Petro) D.'s protons theory from Hyperlipid: If you’re not familiar with the protons theory, basically it’s like this. Fat cells have “switches” that make them insulin resistant (good, don’t want more energy) or insulin sensitive (bad, want more energy). Saturated fat causes insulin resistance (good), monounsaturated fat does not (right in the middle), and polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) cause insulin sensitivity (bad). So, one reason for the obesi…

[ctviggen]

And also in the morning, we’re “insulin resistant” to allow blood sugar to go up. (Though some define this time as being “insulin sensitive”, but free fatty acids are high, counteracting that.) That’s why “insulin resistance” is tough to define: It has too many faces.

I think the theory that different fats affect fat cells differently is an interesting one.

[Weeverrm]

Hate to interrupt the discussion but this started six months ago I was hoping to see some results

[amwassil]

So was I! Hopefully soon.

[ctviggen]

Hmm…Ted Naiman got his already…and hates it. Says he can’t calibrate it due to the rigid rules it has for calibration.

[amwassil]

Bummer! Still awaiting mine.

[charlie3]

I noticed this Lumen product for the first time a few weeks ago. I’m interested if it works as advertised but very suspicious that it doesn’t because of the way it’s promoted. I’m waiting for reviews by people who paid the asking price.

[charlie3]

May be the calibration rules can be fixed in firmware. But my suspician is if this was possible it would have been done years ago. I’m hellbent on improving fat adaption. I’m eating 40 net carbs and doing 2 x 1 hour sessions a day of low heart rate training (on an airdyne instead of running). The theory is, if you stay strictly below your aerobic threshold the body will learn to burn fat at a higher rate and the cardio system will still become significantly more efficient, meaning more work at the same bpm. Elite endurance athelets do this kind of training. If fat burning could be measured it might be possible to train closer to the aerobic threshold to adapt more quickly.

[Eblum418]

Got mine this week. I bit the bullet and did the calibration day ( which requires a high carb and zero exercise day) looking forward to getting back to fat burn. Very curious to see how long that will take.

[amwassil]

I received an email today that my Lumen has shipped. Shipped date: today.

[ctviggen]

High carb, no exercise? Interesting.

[Rabih_Waked]

Hi. Just curious to know what happened with your Lumen and if you found out whether it was good for Keto or not? Does it tell you when you reach ketosis? I want to buy one myself but want to make sure it’s worth it.

[Eblum418]

I’m still giving it a chance. I had been sick so I don’t know if the stress kicked me out of keto, but I have been maintaining my standard keto diet I’ve been on for2 years and it still tells me I’m burning carb . Either I’m doing keto wrong, didn’t eat enough carbs when I calibrated or it doesn’t work

[amwassil]

@Eblum418 Keep in mind that you will never be in a state of zero glucose burn. There are cells, red blood cells for example, that require glucose. So even in ketosis you are still burning glucose.

[Eblum418]

The Lumen gives you a 1-5 score. A being mostly fat burn and 5 being mostly carb burn. I’ve been a 4-5 with a few 3’s since getting the Lumen. No 1-2’s despite almost zero carb days and some fasting days.