Lower Fats Once Adapted?

#21

I have been wondering the same thing.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #22

@NickTunes You look incredibly lean without any body fat to spare. I don’t get why you feel you need to lose weight. It seems like you’re a body builder and would be wanting to gain.

#23

I always say the early hunger and cravings are simply the body having a “temper tantrum” at not getting the carbs it’s used to getting. Feed it primarily fat, a little protein, but as few additional carbs as possible, and it will learn it needs to use the stored body fat it has available. When the body does that, it no longer needs to signal hunger to get as much as it can of what it’s already got available.

#25

Hi Paul, I don’t get hungry at all sometimes for more than 24 hours and end up eating about the 26 to 35 hour range. I don’t feel tired and I don’t try to starve myself. I honest to God have totally no desire to eat. That’s usually one meal every 1.5 or almost 2 days. Your post/explanation was extremely helpful for me above. Please bear with me because I’m very new to the science behind ketosis and fat-adaptation. I also don’t mean to confuse the matter. I read in a few articles(not on this website) that ketosis and fat adaptation are different states. Is this true? If not true, why is this believed by some? I am trying to understand what happened (chemically) where I am not hungry at all. Am I harming my insulin levels? When I eat I eat to satiety but then I stop. It doesn’t matter if I am mid-plate in something. Once I’m full I just saran wrap it or put it away for another day.

Sorry if this is a detour or so basic for anyone. Just wondering if you might have better suggestions on how I can tweak things to be a bit healthier.

(Nick) #26

2 years ago I weighed 235 without an ounce of muscle on me. I lost 45 lbs just by “eating healthy” and then gained about 20 back mostly muscle. I am an endomorph to the max and gain fat very easily. If my diet is not spot on I will gain fat. I recently had ACL surgery and I knew I would be out of the gym for a few weeks so I was scared to death that I would get fat again. So I decided it was a good time to start keto. I am about 15% body fat I would guess and I have been trying for months to get down below 10. The last 5% wouldn’t budge and I thought maybe keto would be just what I need. I am not worried about losing weight as I’m happy with my weight but my goal is to drop body fat and get sub 10%.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #27

Most in shape athletes between 20-40 are very fit at 15-20% body fat but I found another reference of 8-19%. Your body might just want a little more fat than you’re willing to accept as a healthy balance. You’re obviously very proud of the work you put into that six pack so I understand your wanting to keep those muscles visible! :weight_lifting_man:t2:‍♂

(Bob M) #28

It might not have been food, it might have been vitamins and minerals. The low fat diet (and grains) is death to those. That’s why Atkins recommended some multivitamins to start.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #29

Well, it is certainly my understanding that ketosis and fat-adaptation are different, and people on the forums report that as their experience, and Dr. Phinney himself talks that way. Ketosis is ketone bodies above a certain level in the bloodstream. The liver starts producing ketone bodies as soon as there is no more glucose (i.e., carbohydrate) coming into the body from outside and the internal stores begin to drop. So people generally show ketones almost immediately, certainly within two or three days.

Fat-adaptation is when the mitochondria of the muscle cells re-learn their ability to metabolize fatty acids. Apparently, without glucose, they can limp along on ketones, but ketones are fatty acids that have already been partially burned (the term is “intermediate metabolites”), and the muscles do really well starting from the original fatty acids. But the process of changing back to fat metabolism (which we were doing at birth) takes time. Mitochondria have to heal, new ones have to be born, and as I understand it, there are certain enzymes or hormones that the muscle cell has to start producing again. The result is that fat-adaptation takes time. So—ketosis begins in a few days, but fat-adaptation takes 6-8 weeks in most cases, sometimes longer.

Just to confuse you, I should mention that Dr. Phinney makes a distinction between the terms “keto-adaptation” and “fat-adaptation.” He sees them as being different, somehow, but I don’t understand what the difference is.

Lack of hunger is a complex cascade of hormones mediated by the brain by way of the vagus nerve. I’m not up on all the details, but I can tell you that the stomach secretes ghrelin to make us hungry, it secretes some other hormone when it is stuffed/stretched full, and the (small?) intestine secretes peptide YY to shut off hunger. Also, the fat tissue secretes leptin to tell the brain that we have enough stored energy to go without eating for a while. This hormone registers in the hypothalamus, and too high an insulin level blocks the receptors from noticing the leptin.

When the hypothalamus receives that leptin signal, it is supposed to tell the stomach to stop secreting ghrelin. Other stuff is supposed to happen, too, that I don’t remember. The only other thing I can tell you is that appetite regulation occurs in the hypothalamus, particularly the ventro-medial hypothalamus, and that damage to that region of the brain causes problems with hunger and satiety. Anyway, it can’t harm your insulin level in any way that I am aware of. Insulin secretion is managed by certain cells in the pancreas, in regions known as the Islets of Langerhans. One type of cell in the islets secretes insulin in response to the blood sugar level, a second type secretes glucagon, which limits the action of insulin in certain situations.

The way you are eating, to satiety and stopping, is exactly how we are supposed to eat.

For me satiety is very different from having a full stomach, because I just lose interest in eating more, even though my stomach is nowhere near full. By contrast, as a sugar-burner, I could eat until my stomach was hurting from being so full, and still be hungry for more. So we could say that keto is not an all-you-can-eat diet, but an enough-to-make-you-happy diet.

Sorry this turned into such a tome! :grin:

(Todd Allen) #30

You might try eating more at breakfast to reduce hunger at lunch. Or you might experiment with things that can impact satiety signaling such as starting a meal with a glass of water, a bowl of soup or high water content vegetables such as celery. Often it takes time for satiety to kick in, so slow down your meals or drink water before the meal or reserve a portion of the meal to be eaten 30 minutes later. Engaging in activity immediately after eating but not yet satiated can blunt the hunger signaling and give satiety a chance to emerge. And if still hungry after some activity eat something fatty like a handful of macadamia nuts and give it a little more time.

(Nick) #31

Is the eating more at breakfast tip a long term solution? It goes against the “eat as few times a day as possible.”
Or is it just until I am completely fat adapted and comfortable with eating a smaller lunch? Same question goes for saving the rest of my meal for 30 minutes later.

It’s my understanding that we would be better off eating one huge meal a day in order to reduce insulin spikes. And that every time you eat you raise insulin to a degree which puts you in fat storing mode. This reasoning is why I eat 2 large meals a day, opposed to 4-5 small meals.

(Todd Allen) #32

It’s something to experiment with and see if it makes a difference for you. There is research showing that shifting food intake earlier in the day is often beneficial. Insulin sensitivity tends to be best in the morning and worst in the evening. Eating less for dinner or eating dinner earlier or completely skipping dinner can strengthen circardian rhythm signaling, improve sleep and boost growth hormone. But not everyone responds the same, sometimes it doesn’t work or it takes time to adapt to and benefit from a shift in timing.

#33

Any particular reason you are focused on that figure of <10%? It may be achievable with some very strict diet/exercise but what are your plans when you get there? Maintaining at that % could easily turn into a full time job.

(Nick) #34

Just a personal goal. I have been chubby my whole life and way too far away to even think about abs. After dieting down and losing tons of body fat It is now realistic that I can get down to 10% but the last few % has been a struggle.

I don’t mind the “full time job” aspect because eating healthy and working out is what I love to do. Most people that start keto are unhealthy and sometimes obese. That’s not the case for me I have spent the last 2 years following a very strict diet - it just wasn’t keto.

#35

I hear you - I’m the same way myself - I just wonder if a constant <10% will deliver what you hope. Was also curious if you were planning on competing - maintaining <10% or thereabouts would make sense if that were the case.

Anyhoo - best of luck.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #36

My understanding is that normal body fat for men is 11-12%, and for women, 21-23%. Be aware that you may find there are health consequences from trying to go below that.

(Frank) #37

I wouldn’t suggest backing off on dietary fat until you can comfortably skip a meal here or there. Skipping a meal automatically creates a dietary fat deficit as well as an overall calorie deficit. That’s when the magic, not really, starts to happen.

(Frank) #38

Dude. Great physique btw.

(Nick) #39

Thanks! I think the plan going forward is to just lower fat very slowly. Maybe drop to 1tbsp of butter in my bulletproof and stop cooking veggies in bacon grease. I may do this for a week or two while continuing to eat fatty meats and then reevaluate from there.

I’ve been keto for 6 weeks but I had knee surgery within that time frame and it (the stress, I guess) kept me out of ketosis for about 2 of those weeks. So maybe I’m a little further behind with the adaptation than I think.

Does my plan sound reasonable guys? I notice that I do not gain weight on this diet, but I have stopped losing weight. I can notice a little bit more fat storage in my lower belly which makes me want to change things up.

(Alex ) #40

@NickTunes

As a fellow exercise enthusiast, I would have to say that endless fat certainly hasn’t helped me shed the weight on my body whatsoever, particularly my belly.

I use a keto/very low carb protocol, but I train as much as I can, and I track calories in line with TDEE at a level that is recommended somewhere around a 20/25% caloric deficit based around my intake of food.

As much I’d like to eat a 5 egg omelette with cheese, cooked in coconut oil every day for breakfast, plus an MCT coffee, and then a fried steak on a night, this doesn’t help me chip away the fat around my midsection.

You can still have a ketosis based diet plan with moderate fat and protein, and get very good results on your body, I’ve seen more changes this last couple of weeks from cutting back on oils, butter, overly fatty meat, cheese, cream etc, but keeping carbs still very strict.

I think little changes that slice out calories are very helpful - using a one cal oil spray rather than 2 tablespoons of oil when you fry, having one less chicken thigh for dinner, and stripping out unnecessary calories really make the difference.

#41

Thank you, Paul! That was very helpful and gives me somewhere to start more reading as well. I’ll look more into what causes hunger. My stomach feels empty but I have no need to eat. My husband for example eats one meal a day. It is about 3pm today and the last time I felt the need to eat was yesterday at 11am so I haven’t consumed anything except coffee in the morning and water through yesterday to today. I do absolutely experience hunger but it’s usually the 1 to 1.5 to 2 day mark (not very consistent) but I eat when I have to and don’t starve myself (at least I never feel like I’m starving).

I’m a bit interested too in what Alex mentioned about maintaining a ketosis based diet plan with moderate fat and protein. I think it boils down to needs. I don’t feel any need at all to consume so much but it might have something to do with size and how much energy I need to go through the day. My carbs are also very strict but because I eat once a day or once every two days, the carbs come out to maybe 10g a day.