"Low-Carb Community Is Its Own Worst Enemy"

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(hottie turned hag) #22

But they can and do.
Individual biochemistry is always a factor. Always.

Carnivore and veganism, two opposite extremes, both will have individuals who will thrive.

In my own family -just a single anecdote- I have a vegetarian since the 80s husband in kickass health, a vegetarian -never had meat- now 7yr vegan daughter aged almost 36 who looks like a fitness model, and a good pal who (admittedly is a mutant freak of nature) who is aged 56 and in afreakingmazing condition (is an extreme hiker) on a packaged food/high sugar diet.

I’ve worked in med sci for decades and could cite hundreds of cases such as the above if I went back over charts.

Anyone who states a single diet is best for all is usually a layperson with zero scientific knowledge, an agenda (money to be made therefrom) or both (Jillian Michaels, I’m looking at you).

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

A well-formulated ketogenic diet may be the exception. In other words, while there may be people who can eat other diets and still be metabolically sound, I suspect we will find that LCHF/keto is the proper human diet.

Mike Eades has a fascinating lecture on the switch-over to agriculture:

(hottie turned hag) #24

Possibly so, in the main, for Caucasoid folk, but Mongoloids in Japan are thriving on high fish/low fat/lots o’veg, compared to us in the West, as just a quick example.

So race/ethnicity factors in, when speaking of larger groups and not individual biochem.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #25

I think Dr Westman is one of the few doctors who actually listened and learned from his patients without having to go thru it himself to believe them. Not that I’m not glad that Dr Berry et al finally figured it out. And I know that once he clued into what was going on, Westman learned from Atkins. I’m just saying, wouldn’t it be lovely if doctors didn’t assume patients were being noncompliant until proven otherwise? And that if a majority of their patients are noncompliant, then that they should at least examine the quality of the direction?

Yes, this is my fantasy world.

(hottie turned hag) #26

I can tell you, Ruina, that with some pt populations (low income springs immediately to mind, sorry if not PC to say so) this is sadly the case.
Many poorly educated folk are so utterly clueless and unwilling to comply with tx.

Compliance is commensurate with socioeconomic and educational status in my experience in medicine.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #27

I get that. But this is also evidence of failure of the system rather than the individual. I’m not undervaluing personal accountability. But judging people equally only works if people are given equal education and opportunity.

And since the word “doctor” is from the Latin for “teach”, well, the teacher blaming the student for being uneducated is a bit rich.

(hottie turned hag) #28

Ack, I can’t reply without it veering into sociopolitical realm but I’ll say this much, decades of personal experience and if I include data gathered from fam/friends also, all in different branches of medicine both clinical and research/counseling related as I am, “educating” these pts makes not a whit of difference in the majority of the cases, regarding resistance to following instructions.

Granted if you’re referring more to diet instructions being bad info (SAD diet/pyramid recommendation) then yes the “teacher” is culpable in that regard. But that buck can be passed further as we all know what’s taught at any uni as to diet recommendations.

(Kirk Wolak) #29

I am Carnivore by Force. I am allergic to so many plant items it’s downright scary.
I have a severe leaky gut. It may heal in a few decades… Who knows.

But I agree. Not everyone NEEDS to be Keto/Carnivore. some can do well on whatever diet they find that works for them.

MY POINT: We should NOT have to say “Keto is amazing… And so is EVERY OTHER Diet!” It is okay to be PRO-KETO, and screw this author about having to mention the other diets.

Because. If Counting Calories works for you, or veganism does, or what not… YOU ARE NOT Coming over to Keto. You should have found your answer. We are not here for those people who (like my wife) can eat a pizza and be in ketosis the next day! She is NOT struggling.

Now… WHEN EVERYONE (Vegans, Vegetarians, CICO, Low Fat, etc) all say, all the time “Hey, try this approach, but remember Keto and Carnivore work too!”

THEN… And ONLY THEN can they ask that we do what they have REFUSED to do since Atkins first published… And that is to treat us fairly.

BTW, I find most people doing Keto are NOT the Keto or nothing crowd. I suggest it for those who are struggling. But not for my wife. She does not struggle and she rarely over eats. Enough to top off and enjoy… Good for her.

And good on ANYONE who finds a WOE that works for them.

Watching Dr. Fettke talk about the 7th day adventist and the cereal companies… Makes me wonder how much of science has been junk science funded by big grain!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #30

:+1: Dr. Unwin tells of a patient who developed fatty liver disease and got really annoyed when each successive physician kept asking, “Are you sure you only drink one sherry a month?”

(bulkbiker) #31

In case anyone is interested

Dr Tro’s twitter thread…

(Randy) #32

I think there is truth to this statement.

Multiply by 10X and you have the Vegan community. :wink:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #33

I would beware of over-generalizing, especially over the fault-lines of our society. The medical people in my family (mostly nurses), have a much different picture from yours. Furthermore, I can testify that my own failure to comply with the dietary guidelines resulted from the failure of the guidelines, not from my socioeconomic status or from any lack of education.

I also know from experience—on both sides—that what appears from the outside to be stupid and self-destructive behavior can make psychological sense from the inside. Addiction and other psychological problems can be insurmountable, and no one really knows why an intervention that failed yesterday might suddenly succeed today. I also wonder, more and more, whether many of the psychological problems that plague us today might not actually be consequences of our diet.

Peter Attia once gave an extremely powerful TED talk on the dangers of making assumptions about patients, and what he learned from an experience with one patient in particular. It is well worth watching.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #34

I’ve faced this attitude in my lifetime. I’m just grateful enough of my teachers didn’t feel this way.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #35

The more I learn, the more I wonder this as well.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #36

Georgia Ede certainly is thinking along those lines. And Chris Palmer in Boston believes that he has put at least one case of schizophrenia in remission by treating with a ketogenic diet in place of medication.

(Hyperbole- best thing in the universe!) #37

And there are also all the subclinical instances that people deal with alone every day.

#38

I took the original article as basically just gas-lighting.

It goes like this: We (the vegan/veg/low-fat/CICO communities) have been bullying you low-carbers for years, but if you were nicer we might be more accepting of how you eat and listen to you.

STFU.

(hottie turned hag) #39

Now this I completely agree with in the context of the article, yes. Makes sense. Ideally the med practitioner would say “hey in your case I think X diet is the best choice; if it doesn’t get results we can reapproach” and advise case by case rather than advising according to the standard protocol/SAD/pyramid as a default.

@Ruina and @PaulL, I wasn’t going that deep into the whys (resistance to tx amongst certain pt populations) of it; just citing what my experience has been. The reasons it happens are far beyond the scope of these posts.

Here’s my thoughts re: veganism. Many vegans are into it for animal advocacy reasons. That’s why my one daughter is and why I was vegetarian for 8 years ages ago. The ones who are zealots about veganism for animal advocay reasons I have meg respect for. I fared poorly on a vegetarian diet, it doesn’t work for me, physiologically. But am I happy about having to eat meat? No. I am not down with factory farms, at all and hate that I am contributing to them.

(Bob M) #40

I have less respect for them. While I also am not happy with any mistreatment of animals, vegans have to understand that raising crops kills many, many animals and insects. You have to kill the things that will eat your crops, otherwise you will have no crops. That they cannot understand this logically makes no sense.

Furthermore, their idea that the planet will be saved if we kill all the cows, pigs, and chickens and farm plants is misplaced. Those animals, and particularly cows, are carbon beneficial, if done correctly. Plants are NEVER carbon beneficial. When buffalo roamed the US, there was 7 feet of topsoil. That’s all been destroyed due to monocrop farming. What created that topsoil? Animals. Animals heal the earth, plants do not.

To me, the vegans I see on Twitter simply ignore this info, all because they believe they are holier than we are, when they aren’t.

(hottie turned hag) #41

No no, those are the vegans doing it for ECO reasons. Different mindset than the animal advocates. Yes the eco types piss me off.