Low blood keton levels

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #5

You’ve been eating this way for nine months, so your body is getting more efficient at matching production to demand. In the studies Phinney and Volek have done on elite keto-adapted athletes, many of them only registered blood ketones of 0.2 or so. So no need for you to worry.

#6

You’re showing ketones… You’re in ketosis. That 1.5 “nutritional” ketosis is make believe. Ketone levels don’t equal fat loss speed. I lost over 100lbs/45kg at those levels. You’re fine.

(Sebastian Danko) #7

So I have messured ketons 3 hours after lunch at 0,1mmok/l 3 h after dinner at 0,4 mmol/l and again after 20 hours of fast at 0,4 mmol/l so even this was not sufficient to increase keton levels. I messured glucose as well at 4,6 mmol/l after 20 hours of fast. I will test it with omad , that is easy for me in the sence of hunger but problematic in terms if consuming 3000 cal in 1 meal for maintenance . It seems that either 150g of protein or a lot of vegetables does not allow me to raise ketons to higher levels.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #8

I understand where you’re coming from about wanting to know your ketone levels. I’m at an age where I’d like to see lots higher, hopefully in my brain to keep it perking along successfully as much longer as I can do so. But, unless there’s some organic dysfunction, I think fretting over ketones is useless. As long as you keep carb consumption very low/no your liver is going to produce what you need and your organs are going to use it. Maybe it just takes time - as in years - for various cells and organs to readapt to utilizing ketones instead of glucose.

(Sebastian Danko) #9

So I have just messured ketons after 36hours fast , still 0,3mmol/L. I did 8km run and 1hour weightlifting during this time with no issues so it seems Im not able to get into nutritional ketosis, just fat adaptation.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #10

Nonsense! Or, my less confrontational response - that’s doubtful. You are in ketosis by the fact of being ‘fat adapted’. In my opinion, the problem goes to Phinney and Volek ‘defining’ nutritional ketosis as ‘.5mmol and …’ They have since admitted that was an arbitrary number and that many athletes they studied subsequently registered .2mmol and lower and were still very much ‘in ketosis’.

Ketones are a by-product of fat metabolism. If you eat low enough carbs to keep insulin at a level that does not inhibit lipolysis, then you are burning fat as your primary fuel and generating ketones as a by-product. You are in ketosis. Don’t make the mistake of thinking you must have a certain overall level of measurable ketones to be in ketosis. You don’t. You just need to be primarily burning fat, not carbs.

(Joey) #11

Welcome to the forum! … and congratulations on 9 months of low carb eating.

Since you’re not trying to lose weight, may I ask what your objectives are? Do you feel progress toward these goals?

You’ve gotten several replies indicating that (1) measuring ketones is essentially pointless over the long run, and (2) doing so isn’t going to tell you much about whether you are or are not in “ketosis” after 9 months of carb-restriction.

Are you still convinced you must have higher ketone levels?

If so, with all due respect, I’m afraid no one on this forum is going to be able to help you reach some number you’ve decided is the acceptable level on your meter.

On the other hand, if you’re significantly restricting carbohydrates, yes, you’re in ketosis. Otherwise, after 9 months, you’d be long dead. :vulcan_salute:

(Sarah Paton) #12

I am finding the same. Have been on keto 5 weeks. Lots of energy but my breath test shows only 1-3 and says I am hardly in Ketosis. I haven’t lost weight beyond the initial 3Kgs. I am not very hungry either. I have coffee with cream at breakfast, salmon steak with salad for lunch and maybe a chop with steamed cauliflower/broccoli in evening. I drink water or tea with almond milk. What am I doing wrong? I may have a sow metabolism at 74.

(Sebastian Danko) #13

Well, my objective is longetivity, mental clarity and overal athletic performance. Loosing weight is kind of natural without carbs , I have just messured 14% BF what would not happend so easily with carbs. But I understand you point I will stop messure ketons and just focus on exercise and nutrition.

(Joey) #14

We sound alike (although I may be a bit older) in that losing weight wasn’t really our issue, general health and mental clarity/focus were motivators. (In my case, I was also trying to entice my wife to carb-restrict for her health challenges), After not long into keto eating, I couldn’t believe the differences I’d experienced (as did she)…

Are you feeling any changes in mental clarity?

Athletic performance is a trickier topic … depending whether your primary activities entail sprint-like bursts of energy, or longer-term endurance/marathon activities.

If you haven’t already, read Phinney/Volek’s works on athletic performance on carb restriction. There’s a lot there, but the bottom line is, it takes time to fully adapt but once you do, endurance is well-served through keto eating.

Best wishes.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #15

Welcome to the forum, Sarah. As I pointed out above ketone measurements on some device do not - repeat: do not! - define whether or not you’re ‘in ketosis’. Unless you are diabetic, eating low/no carbs for several weeks will drive down your insulin sufficiently to enable you to metabolize fats rather than glucose for most of your energy. Once your metabolism is burning mostly fats rather than glucose, you are ‘in ketosis’. The key here is ‘cut out the carbs’ the less you eat the better. Once you’re ‘in ketosis’ your metabolism will determine how much or how little ketones you need and produce them accordingly. Best wishes.

(Sarah Paton) #16

That is so so reassuring. Thank you! I have one more question: should I, or should I not be taking the keto supplements? I got Dr. Berg Electrolytes, then read an article that said it just stopped my own ketones from being produced and should not be used. Kind regards. Sarah

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

Depends somewhat upon your age and condition of your mental health. If you’re young or middle aged supplementing exogenous ketones will not likely be of much benefit other than boosting the numbers on a measuring device. It’s more important that you metabolize mostly fat and let your metabolism/liver make however many ketones are appropriate. If you’re older - and potential and/or actual mental decline is a consideration - then exogenous ketones may be beneficial. I just posted this in anther topic which is pertinent:

PS: I’m 76, so this stuff is of interest to me!

(Alec) #18

Sebastian
Chasing higher ketones is a classic error. Totally unnecessary, and many people achieve their goals on keto having never measured ketone levels once.

Frankly, it’s an irrelevance, and it is a real shame that this way of eating is called Ketogenic because it makes people think generating ketones is the goal. It isn’t. Ketones happen along the way, but the goal is to change our fuel to fat. Ketones happen to be a by-product of that, but if you are fueling your body mostly on fats, and you are moving towards your health and fitness goals, then all is well.

You don’t need ketones to be measured at a certain level. It is just unnecessary.
Cheers
Alec

(Joey) #19

@SarahP1 Welcome!

I think you may be conflating two separate issues … are you talking about taking electrolytes (salt replacement) or exogenous ketones (ketones ingested from a supplement, i.e., not through your own body’s production)?

If electrolytes: You definitely need to stay properly hydrated and keep your salt (NaCl, Mg, K) in a healthy range - especially when transitioning to carb-restricted eating during which you will lose lots of both and they need to be replaced. While I see no reason to go out and by some particular brand of electrolytes, if you have them, there’s no reason not to use them to maintain your proper hydration, avoid “keto flu” that some experience, etc.

If you’re talking about exogenous ketones as a supplement, I’m in the “no way” camp - unless there’s a compelling reason like you have a serious health condition - which you have not mentioned so I am assuming not.

Others can chime in with either supporting or opposing views (that’s part of what makes this forum educational and thought-provoking), but my own view is a resounding YES to maintaining electrolytes and NO to supplemental ketone ingestion (barring a specific health need, cancer patient, etc.)

YMMV - And congratulations on getting started. :vulcan_salute:

(Alec) #20

These exogenous ketones always make me laugh… I ingest exogenous ketones, I have ketone bodies in my system, I am therefore ketogenic. Eeeeerrrrrrr… no. You are ketogenic when you burn primarily fat for fuel. The existence of ketone bodies in the system means nothing at all.

(Joey) #21

Indeed. If I eat exogenous celery, I have celery in my system. My body has still not produced any celery.

I am not celerogenic. :roll_eyes:

(Alec) #22

I must be baconogenic! :crazy_face::crazy_face:

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #23

While you could say this in casual speech, it would be more precise to call ketone bodies “intermediate products” of fatty-acid metabolism (or “intermediate metabolites,” for short), since they are not left over after a fatty acid is reduced to water and carbon dioxide, but are rather produced during the process and then consumed as the process continues. It’s very similar to how charcoal is produced during wood-burning, but is immediately consumed as the fire progresses.

In both cases, of course, the intermediate products have their uses, so sometimes we produce ketone bodies—or charcoal—to be used later, and don’t continue past the point where they are produced. But I see that as being different, somehow, from a “by-product.”

Please forgive me if I am being too fussy with all this. It’s just that the distinction between colloquial usage and precise technical language has come up in another thread, and I am sensitive about it at the moment. And the overall point of your post is dead on, so this quibble is not a criticism of that point.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #24

Probably nothing. For one thing, the technical definition of “nutritional ketosis” refers to a certain amount of β-hydroxybutyrate in the blood stream, whereas the breath meters measure acetone, and the urine strips measure acetoacetate. So it is possible that your serum β-hydroxybutyrate might be at a level that meets the definition of nutritional ketosis, but not very much acetone is making it into your breath.

But all three ketone bodies occur in blood, breath, and urine, and I’ve never heard anyone talk about how the values of all three ketone bodies in all three locations correlate with one another. For one thing, acetoacetate and acetone are easily interconverted, so there’s that to contend with. There is apparently a relationship between how much acetoacetate and how much β-hydroxybutyrate are produced during ketogenesis, but I haven’t really seen it discussed anywhere.

For another thing, as @SomeGuy points out in the post immediately before yours, if we are eating low-carb and are still alive, we have to be in ketosis. If we are not flooding our blood stream with glucose from our carbohydrate intake, a hormone called glucagon is produced in the pancreas, which stimulates the liver to produce what small amount of glucose we actually need (gluconeogenesis) and enough ketone bodies (ketogenesis) to fuel the other needs of the body. The brain and the heart muscle, in particular, do very well on ketones, whereas the red blood corpuscles (erythrocytes) lack mitochondria and therefore require glucose for their survival. And the skeletal muscles actually prefer fatty acids over ketones or glucose.

Endurance can be better-fueled by fatty acids than by glucose, but the muscles need some time to heal their mitochondria and to reactivate certain other pathways that get shut down if high carb intake goes on for too long. This process of healing and reactivation is called “fat-adaptation” or “keto-adaptation,” and it generally takes close to two months in most people. During that time, endurance suffers. Explosive performance requires glucose, since fatty-acid metabolism is a slower process, even though it yields more ATP in the end and, with the drop in glycogen stores resulting from cutting carbohydrate intake, explosive performance also suffers after we embark on a ketogenic diet.

The experience of most athletes who embark on a ketogenic diet is that endurance returns quite a while before explosive power does. However, the team headed by Jeff Volek at Ohio State University has recently published a study showing that, by the two-year mark, the glycogen levels of keto-adapted athletes are indistinguishable from those of carb-burning athletes, so explosive power does indeed return, and at some point before the two-year mark.