Lion Diet to heal, 4 months in, poor restults. Anyone can help?

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carnivore
zero-carb-carnivore
(Bkone ) #1

Hello, I started the Lion Diet nearly 4 months ago. Why did I do that? I have been suffering from Neurodermatitis since I was a toddler and had suffered some very severe episodes during all those years (I am 39 years old now). After the last severe flare up in December 2022, I decided that I will dedicate the year 2023 to finally putting this to an end and heal.

Up to that point, I was eating a diet high in carbohydrates (a lot of bread, pasta pizza, rice, candy, ect.) as well as consuming quite a bit of alcohol (sometimes 1-2 beers per day, or 1-2 glasses of red wine). I was constantly feeling full and uncomfortably bloated after every meal. Also, I felt very low energy, headaches and was suffering digestive problems like infrequent evacuation, thin stool, etc… The last months of 2022 those symptoms were getting worse and worse by the day, I did not sleep well and felt constantly tired.

In January 2023 I started intermittent fasting, while eating the same diet. This had a positive effect on my digestive problems and caused some weight loss as well (I had around 198lbs at that time and went down to 172 lbs in May/June 2023).

After that, around May I started cutting out carbs totally, ate only vegetables and meat (without tracking macros or anything else. Then in July I went 100% Lion Diet (well, I still drink coffee in the morning, but only in the mornings). I started with 80/20 ground beef and other, relatively lean cuts of meat. At the beginning, probably the first two weeks, I felt amazing - full of energy and my mind was as sharp as a razor blade. Unfortunately, that did no last very long. The first negative aspect was a reduction in sight, everything seems blurrier than before and still is up to today! Over the time, I adjusted to eating more fatty meat, 70/30 ground beef, and fat trimmings together with the leaner meat. I also work out (bodyweight exercise).

Right now, I am feeling constantly tired, brain fog, headaches, little motivation, and also little power to exercise. I also noted, that my beard is gowing less dense. Yesterday I was only able to do 1 set of my exercise routine, after that I felt very weak, nearly fainting although I have had breakfast (I must admit, I take a teaspoon of honey once or twice a week…I had one that morning, not sure if that messed around with my bloodsugar??). I get really tired after eating and might also fall asleep for a little nap. Surprisingly, during the night, I sleep very deep, and I fall asleep very quickly.

What is also disturbing me is, that when i get up quickly, from sitting or crouching, i feel very lightheaded / dizzy for a moment, like before fainting. This happened in the beginning, i knew it was due to the transition, but it keeps happening until today, every time!

The last weeks I have been eating the following:

  • Breakfast: 500g of 70/30 ground beef
  • Lunch: 400g of lean meat with 150g of fat trimmings, 100g of beef liver and 100g of beef heart.
  • Hydration: water with Himalaya salt or sparkling water (around 3 liters per day)

This can vary, sometimes I have an additional 500g of ground beef. So, all in all, my calory intake is very high, sometimes above 4000kcal per day. And I feel I am still losing weight, and, despite the amount of food I am eating, I still feel hungry from time to time. Right now, I am at around 163 lbs and I do not want to lose more weight (I am doing this to finally heal and not to lose weight) and I am wondering why I am not putting on weight again eating at such a caloric surplus. Where do all those calories go?

Starting yesterday, I feel cravings for other foods. I have not had any (serious) cravings, not even during the first weeks, so why are they coming through now?

During that whole period, I had 2 cheat days (my wifes’ and mi sons’ birthday, chocolate cake…what should I do?). And sometimes I have some red wine (perhaps 1x per month).

Since yesterday I switched the fat trimmings to suet, still, I think I eat to much fat which is why I think i am still having loose stools, although I feel weaker eating less fat. Right now I get around 82% of my calories from fat and 18% from protein.

The only issue that has been resolved is my digestive problems. I do not feel bloated anymore (from day one of cutting carbs), I have bowel movements every day (at least once) although stool is loose and very fatty. Does that mean I am not yet fat adapted?

I hope I did not write too much but felt that those details might be important. I tell myself every day that I am on the right track, but still, feeling as tired as described makes me question this every day, since most of the people start feeling great after 3 months.

Thanks for reading :relaxed: And perhaps anybody has some corresponding ideas!

(KM) #2

Goodness! How’s the neurodermatitis going?

(Bkone ) #3

Hey!! Well, two weeks ago i had another, smaller flare-up, but decided not to treat with cortisone, after one week it settled all alone! Right now it is still under control. perhaps i could book this as first success! thanks for asking :slight_smile:

(Bob M) #4

Do you think you’re losing fat? Could you be gaining muscle instead?

Are you eating liver for a reason?

(KM) #5

We have some people here who are better amateur detectives than I am, hopefully someone will chime in. Have you had any bloodwork done?

(Bkone ) #6

Thank you Bob! I am definately still loosing fat. But i am also gaining muscle from the workouts. I eat organs (heart and liver) to complement nutrients. I try to emulate “from nose to tail” but i am stuck with steak, heart, suet and liver :joy:

(Bkone ) #7

Really appreciate your time KM!! I had bloodwork done in january, before starting this Odyssey and am planning to repeat soon.

#8

Do you actually eat lions?

What’s in a Lion diet?

Oh, OK. I read back up the wall a bit.

4 months in. Light-headed, brain fog etc. Maybe you are depleting some nutrient storage at this stage. You will have to be strongly aware of your micronutrients on such a low insulin diet. Particularly minerals. There will not be much sodium retention by your kidneys, so you are at risk of wash-out of other minerals such as magnesium and potassium. You may need more Himalayan salt than what you are dosing. How much are you using per day?

@Naghite Michael is knowledgeable on minerals from food sources. Such as magnesium from seafoods and snails. I reckon a lion would not hesitate to eat a snail.

Drinking 3 litres of water per day may exacerbate mineral loss. You don’t want your body scavenging minerals from your bones and teeth. Correct mineral balance is important for proper nervous system electrical function.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #9

I suspect @FrankoBear is on to something here. Even though you’re putting salt in your water, three liters sounds like a lot. Don’t force the water; drink to thirst instead. We don’t require as much liquid as the sport drink manufacturers would have us believe.

Another concern to bear in mind is not to overdo the liver. You don’t need it every day. Once a week is sufficient. Liver contains a great deal of Vitamin A, which can build up over time and become toxic. (It is fat-soluble and therefore difficult to excrete.)

As Dr. Anthony Chaffee points out, we need to consider the relative size of the liver compared to the rest of the meat on the animal and eat liver in proportion. It’s a great food, but not to be overdone. We are hearing about cases of hypervitaminosis A lately, in people who eat liver too enthusiastically and excessively.

(Michael) #10

I have been keeping an eye on this thread. My reactions mimic those of @FrankoBear and @PaulL, however I am not sure either.
1). 100g of beef liver daily will eventually cause vit A toxicity over 5 to 10 years, so while I would reduce it to a third or less daily. I do not think that is your problem now
2). Too much water for sure , a more likely culprit , still not confident that is the issue
3) beef liver is an excellent source of copper which interacts with zinc. You MAY be short zinc due to copper levels. Are you willing to add some oysters to your meals for a bit to see if the added zinc makes a difference?
4). I have been low carb to zero carb for two years. I do not take supplement, I do not salt my food or water, but I am cognizant of all my minerals and eat them in my food.
5) beef heart is one of my favourites as well. I try to eat it daily. Snails are great for magnesium, if you can add these into your routine regardless.

Not sure I said anything or help, but those are my thoughts.

#11

I can’t say much about the others but 3 liter water isn’t much, I am above it lately and I am very thirsty quite often… (I eat a moderate amount of sodium as usual, ~5g a day, I do that on every woe but it’s individual. I could eat a spoon of salt if I needed, I just never need it as far as I can tell - and I hate overeating sodium, it feels horrible. Every tablespoonful brings 2 liters of water though, my body wants that kind of balance.)
My food typically contains little water, I can’t just drink 2 liters and being okay with that… I imagine bigger, more active people with more sweating and in summer may need WAY more than I. Well, we feel when we are thirsty and I firmly believe we must drink then and if it causes problems, solve it at the other end, not through reducing water intake. Unnecessary drinking is another thing, don’t do that excessively. I like to drink a tea or something without thirst and I use drinks to consume some more fat and protein sometimes but that’s not excessive and I would get thirsty in no time without it anyway.

(Bkone ) #12

Hey FrankoBear, thank you very much for your answer!!!

hehe no, no lions are harmed here. the Lion Diet consist only of Beef, water and salt, so its quite restrictive. Though i still have my coffee in the morning, which i might drop as well in a couple of month. So stricly speaking it is a “modified” version of the Lion Diet…

I have not repeated bloodwork yet. But i am planning to do this soon. With regards to the amount of Himalaya salt, i put around 0.6g of salt into 450ml (arount 15oz) of water, but i also use that to salt my meals to taste. So only salt from water would be around 3.6g. Salt from food is an unknown, perhaps another 3 g? So the daily intake would be around 6-7g.

I was already thinking about supplementing minerals, but somehow i am hesitant to using isolated minerals as in supplements (correct me if i am wrong here), since i am convinced that those should come from the food we eat (lets exaggerate here a little and think about that cavemen did no use supplements either).

As for the water quantity, i had days were i did drink much more than 3 liters. Though in the last couple of days i felt some reduction in thirst and adjusted the amount accordingly. But, an important info here is that i live in the Dominican Republic and excessive sweating is a daily routine, so my water intake normally was always higher than in any colder regions.

(Bkone ) #13

Hi Paul, Thank you very much for your opinion!!!

I adjusted drinking to thirst in the last couple of days since i am not feeling as thirsty anymore.

About the Liver, i also did hear Dr. Anthony Chaffee talk about that. That makes total sense to me. I made some research and found that one can eat 3.5oz (around 100g) per day (but probably not for a long period…). At the beginning I really was craving liver and I wanted it every day. My tastebuds literally demanded the taste of it, day after day. This urge faded a little and now I am having it every other day since last week or so. On a side note, I am really surprised about how you get more aware of what the body needs over time, since I swiched to cero carb.

#14

What I have read about liver is similar to what @Naghite wrote. 500g of liver per fortnight should be enough for me as it’s too nutritious… Well I can eat nearly that amount in minutes if I am a bit motivated, normally I eat less but I eat my 500g in 3 days and I could eat it again next week but I shouldn’t… No problem, so many nice organs and other food to eat! It’s just I can buy chicken liver everywhere… So easier to eat it and hard to get bored with even if I don’t particularly like it…
I have chicken liver, pork liver, beef liver and pork spleen in my freezer now.
And I will eat rabbit liver in a few days. I used to buy pâté on top of my normal liver consumption but I am choosier about the ingredients now (I don’t even accept water as the biggest part), I will need to make my own… That will reduce my consumption a bit… It’s fine now, I can eat much fresh meat, it wasn’t always the case, I depended on liver more back then.

I think it’s very normal to have such phases, I have them too. It makes things more interesting. I don’t think it’s about what my body needs most of the time, more like I (re)discover an item and have a good time with it. That’s important too. I mostly have that with processed meats and dairy, the others change less. I always ate liver in the last years (I did virtually vegetarian keto/low-carb before that) and probably always will, never really much and never felt the need to stop for more than 2-3 weeks.
I don’t know why but liver (with all its too strong flavor) is something I can’t bored of while the organs I loved way, way more got that fate very quickly. But they will be back after several months.

(Bkone ) #15

Thank you very much Micheal!!!

I am not to sure about oysters. I have never had them in my whole life and the same goes for snails. Would there be any alternatives? :sweat_smile:

So you are getting all your minerals from your food? Thats what I meant in the reply to @FrankoBear, I am not convinced about supplementing. I do not know why, but I doubt that supplements are bioavailable and make any difference (I do not have any proof, it is just a gut feeling…and since supplements are huge marked, you know what I mean :slight_smile:)

I might reduce liver to only once/twice a week, I felt that the appetite for it is decreasing. So I will listen to what my body demands, which seems to work quite good lately.

Beef heart is just delicious, I prefer it medium-well. It tastes better than Ribeye haha. My wife hates me for that. She does not want hear about the things I eat.

#16

Heart is good. Nice taste, lovely chewy texture! :smiley: Sometimes we make chicken liver and heart stew (with heart being the majority)…

I need to get some heart soon. I plan to eat as many different animals and organs in November as I comfortably can.

(Bkone ) #17

Shinita, thank you very much!!

There have been days that I drank more than 3 liters, and days I had less. Honestly I am not too sure that I felt a huge difference. Right now I am drinking to thirst. Also, I live in a very hot and humid area, which increases my water needs per se. What I did recognize is, that drinking water without salt (except sparkling water) makes my stomach feel uncomfortable. The drinking water here (Dominican Republic) is made by reverse osmosis. It literally has no minerals (as far as i understand). Adding some salt makes it much easier to drink.

I still do not know how much my coffee consumption interferes with the mineral levels in general, that might be an issue too.

(Betsy) #18

Look up vitamin a toxicity plus vision and alopecia.

Amber O’Hearn says that people who include so much organ meat are more likely to have a hard time on the diet than people who don’t.

(Michael) #19

Not much else in carnivore has magnesium other than snails, so not really there (Mackerel is next highest if you like it at 7% RDA for magnesium per ounce mackerel as opposed to 17% with snails.). In terms of copper/zinc, it is about the ratio. Lean beef (sirloin/cross rib/cheeks) has zinc with little to no copper, so a beef cheek would even out the ratio. You can do sheep lamb chops that gets the same ratio with more fat - this might be your best option. Oysters are 3 time’s the zinc to copper ratio, and you can get it in a small amount which makes it easier. I always suggest alternating beef and chicken liver to increase folate and decrease copper somewhat.

PS Michael is the spelling, the only place it is spelt Micheal is in the bible, which is why SOOOO many people spell the most common name incorrectly - well at least the religious types.

I eat my heart mostly raw, it is not chewy at all, it is a naturally soft and tender as it should be - same with my (beef) liver. I obviously cook chicken liver for safety.

#20

Nothing is bad with chewiness IMO. I heard about tender heart (that was with slow cooker I think…?) but I would be very disappointed and turned off if the heart I want to eat would lose its amazing chewiness as I can’t get that from something else! My normal meat is super tender and I love variety :slight_smile: I can get tender and crunchy, juicy or dry from my pork but chewy? Nope.
Liver is tender (I probably cook it for the longest on this forum. not beef though, that somehow communicated to me it wants less time. and I who fried the hell out of everything especially liver, obliged), tongue is super soft, I need the heart staying chewy! As it’s probably that originally, it’s not like I am willing to try it raw.