Ketoing for over a month, still confused


(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #51

That our bodies are affected by the metabolic processes of hormones are fundamentally the same in the human body. Counting calories is a failed premise.

(Michelle) #52

pretty freaking awesome. CICOpath. ha ha ha

(eat more) #53

haha i used “cicopath” in a sentence the other day…i thought i made it up and felt very clever and here it is! :joy:

(Mike W.) #54

What sort of instance would this be true? One of the biggest issues when people start Keto is restricting calories and screwing up their metabolism.


There’s a middle ground between restricting calories and binging on calories. Also especially at first it can be difficult to trust one’s satiety signals and differentiate between adequate nutrition and stomach fullness.

(Mike W.) #56

What effect do calories have on Ketosis?


OP is concerned with weight loss as well as ketosis, and giving consideration to calories can be a tool for that.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #58

(Adam L) #59

Below seems relevant to where this conversation has gotten to. It’s from @ted.naiman & seems to me to show the interplay between keto & calorie intake - specifically calories eaten from fat. He’s advocating keto principles on carbs & protein, he’s clearly not advocating “no limit on (fat) calories” and he claims on Twitter to have helped heal a lot of people with this woe. He’s advising hit those keto targets for carbs & protein then manipulate fat calories in depending on what your goal is. Absolutely there are CICOpaths out there who have helped ruin lives & hopefully they’ll get their just “desserts” via class action lawsuits one day (hello diabetes organisations across the world). Ted Naimans brilliant little diagram shows me that keto and recognition of fat calorie intake and its manipulation can coexist and are both important. (Ok he talks about fat grams not calories but same same - maybe he did that to not draw heat/hate from ketonians who would gladly flatten any CICOpath they meet! i.e. he doesn’t want @Brenda to pick him up & powerbomb him at ketofest!!!)

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #60

Yeah. Ted did a podcast with the dudes. He’s cool. Did you see his ab pic on facebook and twitter? Lol. I always give him shit about his “nekked profile pic”

(Adam L) #61

Ha ha yes I’ve seen many of his unsmiling pics & his impressive body weight exercise videos. Imagining you picking him up and doing military presses or biceps curls using him as the weight! I found his stuff on twitter shortly after I’d started the 8 week blood sugar diet - 8 weeks of 600-800 calories a day ugh - that sure made Teds #LCHF pics of steaks & eggs look very appealing! That then lead me to the 2 Keto Dudes & here. He has some really good info on Twitter & at

Seem to recall in that podcast he had a slightly different take on protein than the dudes & other experts in that he favoured quite a bit more, especially for anyone doing muscle work exercises. As with his diagram above its good to see different perspectives within the woe, gives us some parameters within which we can explore & work out what suits us best.

(Christopher Avery) #62

Still quite a #newbies (just 2 weeks into kteoing), I listened to the2KetoDudes @ted.naiman podcast today and was crushed to hear him diss “empty” or nutrient poor fats such as coconut oil, although it makes sense. I was listening while out on a hike after my keto coffee (double shot espresso, 2 tbls coconut oil, 2 tbls heavy whipping cream).

I’m glad to find this post and comment. What is this group’s thought about focusing on nutrient dense fat, and setting targets for equal amounts of fat and protein (equal to 1 gram per lean body mass)? This is not what I’ve heard from the dudes. I wish 2ketodudes would have explored their differences with Ted on this topic.

(The good news is that I like liverwurst).

(Adam L) #63

The mantra around here is eat “fat to satiety” which makes a good deal of sense. There’s a lot of info on this forum about that subject, these are just a couple, some great info & entertainment in these threads.

Though it can be frustrating reading at times the nuggets of gold on this topic emerge to aid in understanding;

If you feel inspired to try ted’s method & want to set a fat intake target, track it & see what happens I’d be very curious to hear how it goes.

(Christopher Avery) #64

Thank you @Adam.

I’m trying to not overthink this, and, @ted.naiman 's idea of not eating useless fat makes sense. So I’m not going to set any different macro targets than I already have. I’m just going to make sure I get my protein quota and keep my carbs low. And then if I’m hungry I’ll eat fat to satiety.

(Kathy L) #65

Yes! If a lawsuit were filed on the heart association & diabetes association for contributing to the ill health of people & lining the pockets of big pharmaceutical -maybe they’d have to “show the science” behind their recommendations (which they don’t have) at trial & they’d have to admit their recommendations have been wrong! Sort of a Tim Noaks scenario!

(Mary Ann) #66

This makes a lot of sense to me. Metabolism isn’t as simple as CICO but the added fat is a way to reduce calories if the aim is to lose weight.

One thing I appreciate about this community is the stress on self experimentation. There are keto guidelines but we need to find what works for each of us.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #67

:zornface: There is no keto rulebook

(Mary Ann) #68

Are you trying to clarify that there are no exact guidelines except to remain in ketosis? If so, I agree. I used a colloquial way to say there are no hard and fast rules but there are suggestions for getting into ketosis. Sorry for the confusion.

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #69

Just saw an opportunity to be humorous is all.


There are indeed, no keto rules. Lol :wink:

(Cathrine Helle) #70

I think this talk from dr Fung explains very well why CICO is a flawed approach. The two compartment analogy made perfect sense to me anyway :slight_smile: