Keto vs Plant-based diet

(Denise) #1

I could not, well, I would not want to give up the foods I eat on Keto but I got curious when I put up an exercise and diet topic (my keto experience) and got a reply, just one so far. The person shared how they’d been working out in a gym 35 years, and they ate a whole-food, no processed, plant-based diet and wanted to know about my daily foods.

I answered and of course they got an earful, they asked so I told my story. The reason I am posting this is how could both of us be improving our health when we are basically the same age, but eating almost opposite diets?

I started a video to watch but the guy was anti keto, low-carb etc. so I just wasn’t interested. I suppose there are opposite studies being done, but can we talk about this, maybe even some personal experience with plant-foods (I guess like vegan, more than vegetarian).

One thing I noticed on a lady I’m watching for weight-bearing exercises is, I don’t see much muscle except on her arms. Can a person build muscle without meats, fish, poultry? She just looks like she has a pretty good layer of fat, maybe like to see her BF %.

I guess I like to find things to dig into and find some answers, like why can they eat that way when carbs turn to glucose. Eating that many every day including beans etc., vegetable oils, if they use them, wouldn’t that attribute to Insulin resistance?

Thanks all, sorry I’m not hear more to share things that are improving, I doubt I ever drift away from keto. I attribute most if not all my success with my health, and a Taper from clonazapam with little or zero withdrawal symptoms, including my gym workouts :grin::heart: Denise

PS working on my bone density (osteoporosis, start of) now to see if I can reverse or at least stop that with my diet and some supplements like collagen, Boron, MK-7, D3. Feedback welcome :wink:
Found this by Diet Doctor’s Bret Scher, makes a lot of sense, and I think a very fair comparison:

#2

Well, humans are pretty wonderful omnivores, they can go into opposite directions and getting good results sometimes. Probably few people can do both just fine themselves (or who knows?) but different people are thriving on different diets.
And sometimes the diet doesn’t work long term but just some years for a young person, it does…

I never tried a plant-based diet for more than a few days (I was merely interested in veganism and read this and that) but I am pretty sure I could survive on it (it would be stressful to make sure I get everything, I would miss my eggs and I wouldn’t do it by my own will without some serious outside force, it wouldn’t be so great for me BUT I would live without much physical suffering I suppose) - as long as I kept my carbs real low, that is what my body seem to have problems with. But it’s so, so much easier close to carnivore… :wink:

Of course. Why not? Calories and protein is easy on every even remotely sane diet (if one can eat and not even the worst items only). There are protein rich plants and these are modern days, we can get those processed almost pure protein items too. (My 5 days were without them and my protein dropped to only adequate… But I can eat 160g gluten in one sitting easily if needed.)
And if one just doesn’t eat meat but not plant-based, they can eat lots of complete animal protein as I did as a vegetarian. You can very clearly make muscles from eggs and dairy, meat can’t give you more perfect amino acids :wink: But you can get them all from plants too, it’s just a tad trickier, still not too hard if research a bit.
At this point (after reading so many things on this forum and elsewhere too) I would worry about the extra problems plants bring, not the lack of nutrients (most people are willing to take supplements anyway, even on keto. so vegans needing it doesn’t seem a good point against the woe).

There are muscular vegan bodybuilders and strongmen but it makes perfect sense, they can get everything needed for being muscular and more or less fine from plants and supplements, after all…

People on this forum often have problems with plants, it makes sense, it’s usually that’s why they went keto. But not everyone is like that. I don’t have problem with any plants - as long as my (non-animal) carb intake is very low most of the time. So low that vegetarian keto doesn’t cut it. Maybe it could have worked with gluten galore but I just don’t seem to like the idea when I can eat other things especially less processed complete animal protein…
That would be my problem with a plant-based diet: I inevitably would need to base my protein need on gluten every day (as there are few protein rich, very low carb plant items) and it just doesn’t feel right. Eating it is easy and very enjoyable, at least short term, that wouldn’t be the problem, I just can’t consider it a nice, balanced diet even if I try to complete the amino acid profile (I would need pea protein powder or something… grain/legume is a good combo but I couldn’t afford the carbs. but if one can eat more carbs and less fat…).

(Denise) #3

thanks Shinita, I put up the Bret Scher video a bit late, but it’s way good in “spelling out” the difference in nutrients, etc.

Also being a T2 Diabetic( cannot do high carbs), and even if I wasn’t I wouldn’t want to overload my system with too much glucose causing Insulin Resistance/Metabolic Syndrome, which I’ve learned about here, and videos.

(Joey) #4

It comes down to incompatibility. Nitro and glycerine aren’t explosive … when kept apart.

I tend to look at dietary carbs and dietary fat through this lens. Don’t mix.

And yes, you can build muscle on a plant-based diet. But you better ensure you get enough protein from somewhere. And don’t forget those essential vitamins lacking in most such foods. Takes extra effort to remain healthy and not become malnourished. Meat-based eating doesn’t present such challenges.

In short, if you’re eating a lot of carbs you better not add too much fat to the diet. And vice versa.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #5

Keto is not necessarily an animal-food diet. Vegetarian keto is quite feasible, and even vegan keto can be done, though it requires careful planning and the use of supplements.

Gary Taubes interviewed two doctors for The Case for Keto, Georgia Ede, who is carnivore, because plant foods make her ill, and an internist in the American midwest (whose name I forget), who can’t eat meat and so does vegan keto.

Also, while a low-carb, high-fat ketogenic diet works well for most people, don’t forget about the Kempner rice diet and other similar diets. Many people have reversed their Type II diabetes on them, and the key is that the diets are very high-carb and extremely low-fat.

These considerations are why Richard says (a) show us the science, and (b) figure out what works for you.

#6

Yes, but it’s VERY hard to build and maintain muscle on plant based diets. Their protein isn’t as bioavailable, most of them eat incomplete protein which doesn’t count and as you saw, wind up small, yet flabby from lack of muscle mass.

(Denise) #7

Yes, I’m with you and Bret Scher, Joey :wink: I have not intention of changing from Keto, maybe just getting better at find good grass-fed beef. We do get quite a bit here luckily. I have an amazing amount of energy for my age and I don’t have to work that hard at shopping or cooking which I totally love. I only eat meats, fish, poultry, and some pork for dinner. I am sleeping better, not snacks unless I make up some fat-bombs. I don’t count calories, at all now.

I don’t spare my cooking oil, EVOO is all I use, guess I’m not that much into variety for fuel. Eating isn’t even top on my priority unless I feel a little hungry. My strength training is going good, yesterday was one of my best. I did my 3 sets of 12, on each exercise but upped my weight on 2nd set, and upped it again on my 3rd as was still just barely able to do the third. 40lbs on my lat pull-downs. Never did 40 lbs of anything except lower body :wink:

(Denise) #8

Makes sense, I mean someone that’s done weights and at right for many years, and a Physical Therapist I just think more of a “hard-body” look would be there. She’s a lot younger than I am too. I have a lot of floppy skin, not as firm ya know :wink: At 70 I kind of wonder sometimes if I can actually tighten that up. Like I mentioned to @SomeGuy (Joey), I am learning to push myself just a little to improve my weight amounts :wink:

(Denise) #9

I know that gal mentioned on my benzo forum that a Dr. named Barnard wrote a book on reversing Diabetes with plant-based diet, I wondered about that, I guess it is possible, glad that was not my only option, that’s for sure. My first thought was how the heck do I get enough protein and all the other nutrients.

(Joey) #10

That’s especially important as we age to maintain, if not improve, bone density. Keep up the great effort! :+1:

Remember, strength training is not about weight loss. It’s for all those other benefits that can’t be attained through any other means. Builds muscle, bone strength, promotes tissue function, etc. Losing weight (i.e., burning body fat) is an entirely separate matter.

(Harriet) #11

I’m of the opinion that there is no “one size fits all” for anything about humans. Not when it comes to diet, medication, clothing, anything. It’s where I diverge with conventional medicine.

Zero carb works for some people not others. High carb works for some people not others. Some medications help XYZ people, blah blah blah. You get the picture.

And on top of that, people are dynamic and your physiology changes over the years. Perfect example, my husband followed a ketogenic diet for several years. He was always able to eat higher carb than me and still stay in ketosis. Over the past year or so we both slacked off, he didn’t really gain much, maybe five pounds, I put on about 25. We both cleaned up our lifestyle recently and he quickly dropped the pounds just cutting carbs and booze, meanwhile I’m halfway there and have been far stricter. However, we’ve discovered he can’t go into ketosis anymore. It causes severe panic attacks that give him tachycardia. He’s fine with “regular” low carb. It’s strange but people change as they age.

The tough part is finding your particular “niche”. Some people make the effort, they feel rotten and research and immediately find their solution. Others feel rotten, go to the doctor and feel better. And some of us feel rotten, try our own solutions, don’t really improve, go to the doctor and time and again they make us sicker so we have no choice but to keep searching on our own whether we want to or not.

(KM) #12

Are animals better than plants? Well I obviously think so, but my personal conspiracy theory: it’s the processing and the wholly unnatural foods and skewed macros of processed and ultra processed food that’s killing us. Both the plant based and the animal based communities, if they are sticking with natural foods, are probably better off and healthier than anyone eating a standard diet of mostly packaged industrial food.

I get incredibly irritated with scientific studies that feed [insert animal] an industrialized garbage chow with adjusted macro nutrients and extrapolate much of anything from it. (This mouse is getting twice as much palm oil as that one? That one’s getting a triple ration of soy and pea derivatives (i.e. “protein”?) That tells me nothing about how animals eating clean meat full of saturated fat are faring, all it tells me is to avoid industrialized palm oil and strange protein isolates, thanks.)

As far as I’m concerned, defending one side of processed crap v. the other is like going on a crusade about whether it’s better to eat a diet of all McDonalds or all Domino’s.

(Geoffrey) #13

I don’t know very many vegetarians but every single one I do know is unhealthy and sickly. I was put on a strict vegetarian diet to help with my Crohn’s but all it did was make it worse. I went carnivore and within one month I was cured.
So from my experiences, plant based diets have no place in human physiology. I am a meat eater and that will never change because that’s what works for me. It took me a long time to find this path and I have no intention of ever straying from it.
As has already been said, we are all different and have to find our own path.

(You've tried everything else; why not try bacon?) #14

If you look at Neil Barnard’s data, you will find plenty of flaws in the investigation. Lots of confounders, so it’s hard to say which intervention really had the effect.

Also, take a good, hard look at who the sponsors are of his group, Physicians for Responsible Medicine.

(Kirk Wolak) #15

Often, it’s not what you are ADDING…
It’s more likely what you are removing…

And your body can survive a Vegan diet for a couple of years.
Then the deficiencies kick in… Look at a 15 year Vegan Photo.
I CANNOT tell if they are Vegan… Or Meth Addicts… (Seriously).

85% of the people who go Vegan, leave it for health reasons.
That should tell you all you need to know.
The book “The Vegan Myth” By Lierre Keith is eye opening.
She bought in… Stuck with it so long, she did serious damage to her body.

Final point. There are many people who went Vegan. Got worse, and
found healing in Carnivore (SBG Bella, for one, but so many). I don’t
know any of the reverse (pure carnivore, and gave it up for health reasons,
to become a Vegan. And are healthier 5 years+ later)

(Alec) #16

I agree with each of your points, except the last one. We are not different, we are all the same species, and we do best on a species appropriate diet. And it is super clear that this is very low carb, mainly fatty meat.

#17

@CaptainKirk: That’s what I have found too. It’s just some videos and experiences but it really shows being a vegan, even one who really, really tries and research and want to make it work, very often isn’t a good, healthy idea. Surely some are thriving on it, why not? Not all of us are particularly sensitive, some of us can eat a ton, that may help with getting enough nutrients and there are supplements for the very few that is problematic on a vegan diet (there aren’t much if one eats well enough, allegedly some people can even make B12 though it’s very rare…? never researched it, just read once). But indeed, it seems it’s a very bad idea for quite many. I heard about a few vegan->carnivore changes and no carnivore->vegan ones. Carnivores adding back vegs as they function better that way, I heard about such cases but carni->vegan, nope. It may or may not mean something, of course, I don’t even know why I am writing this comment…

That’s very clearly not true if I look at my SO and many others who are thriving on their high-carb diet (and potentially suffering on low-fat)… And we are all different and need different diets, it’s quite clear even looking at people on this very forum. Some don’t even do keto but still do low-carb, some do keto with plants and found carnivore bad for their bodies, some do carnivore and a little plant causes problems, some just do whatever while trying to stay close to carnivore as their body likes that (me) :smiley: Even when I do carnivore, I need a very different style than many others (and the beginning was worse as I needed a low-meat carnivore style due to not being able to eat much meat. it still was the best diet I ever had until then). I couldn’t live just on meat ever (well if my survival would depend on it, I would do it. I like living). I never even missed it when I was a vegetarian (my diet was pretty good and nutritious except too much non-animal carbs even on keto. I blame those carbs even when it’s about overeat fat and protein. they are the root of almost all of my dietary problems).
I only eat meat because it’s inavoidable when one eats a diet with very low plant carbs (something my body wants and need to function best) - and it’s tasty, convenient, simple too… And my body did its crazy thing and now it misses meat if I neglect it (like eating only 300g for 2 days instead of 500). I was fine with almost zero for decades but now it has this very inconvenient thing :frowning: Even the same human changes, maybe just in some years. I was physically unable to do keto (without suffering. I don’t do suffering if I can help it. I always quit on day 1 with suffering if it’s due to my new diet) 10 years ago while I am physically unable to do high-carb or even low-meat keto now, apparently. I get complaints from my body, to the extent that it’s virtually impossible to ignore.

#18

The fundamental assumption underlying the diet wars and most nutrition research that there is one perfect diet that works for every single person is absolutely incorrect.

How you manipulate your diet should depend on your metabolism, goals, and what you can stick to. It seems quite clear that a nutritional intervention aimed at correcting a serious problem (e.g., highly restricted diets, even fasting, to treat obesity, NAFLD, and type 2 diabetes) might be different from a nutritional plan calibrated to maintain good health (e.g., balanced diets in metabolically healthy people).

(KM) #19

I agree with this. IMO there are three possibilities. Being in somehow poor health and seeking a healthy baseline, being at a healthy baseline and maintaining that, and boldly going where no one has gone before, i.e. finding unnatural hacks not available in nature or history that might be really advantageous for healthspan or enhanced performance. All three of these could be seen as’ proper human diets’, depending on the goal and starting point.

Edit: I don’t know where to stand about “everyone’s different”. I do agree that some tweaking based on genetics and personal history and situation is warranted in order to find an individual perfect diet. But I also agree that in the end we are all the same species with the same basic mechanisms going on inside us.

#20

Sadly, most of the research and studies on diets and different protocols are done on males. This would include mice and rats as well. Females react differently to keto than males do. Fasting is also different for females as well. The biggest problem with so-called hacks is that there is not enough time to evaluate the longer-term effects. So short-term may be very beneficial; however, long-term, you do so at your own peril. Dr. Peter Attia no longer does extended fasting. His reason is that the benefits do not outweigh the costs. Keep in mind that he is a healthy individual. Dr. Jason Fung does not purposely fast. He does miss meals as he is very busy and indirectly fasts. In professional cycling at the highest levels, they train their bodies to consume up to 120+ grams or more of carbs per hour. These athletes are among the fittest on the planet and have incredible mitochondrial efficiency; however, once retired, I doubt this strategy will work.