Keto or Paleo

(Marquel L Rouse) #1

If I want to follow a keto diet but eat fruit, that would be Paleo and not Keto correct?

(Rob) #2

They are not specifically exclusive but that’s how a lot of people see it.

If you see Keto as 20g carbs, moderate protein, fat to satiety then it is different since you can’t fit much fruit into 20g unless it’s all berries and no other green veg.

If you see keto as ‘as many carbs as keeps you in ketosis’ then for a metabolically healthy person, that could be 125g and you could have as much fruit as you can cram in your keto pie hole :grin:

Call it whatever you want and see how it goes. If you can’t achieve your goals with the fruit, cut it out and go stricter keto, if you can it goals, great! KCPO!

As to names, I call it whatever will help/enthuse/confuse/piss off the person I am speaking with depending on my desired outcome (family/friend/stranger/vegan - in that order :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:)

PS You are still welcome here either way since I’m sure many would love to see your progress and experience with the added fruit (but give us all a lot more context on your situation/goals, etc.)

#3

IThere’s a lot of overlap between keto and Paleo (and many folks are both), but if you eat enough carbs to prevent you from being in ketosis, you’re not doing keto. So, no, generally speaking keto = no fruit. Some folks can tolerate small amounts of berries but most just avoid it altogether.
For the record, though, there are very few folks in the Paleo world who recommend eating a lot of fruit.

ETA: what he said ^ :slightly_smiling_face:

(Cristian Lopez) #4

Oh the killer Fructose…

I find it scary too bite into a fruit and then bite into a slice of bacon

Insulin from fruit–> fat from bacon --> fructose metabolized by liver --> = DISASTER!

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #5

Depends on the fruit.
I don’t call my plan keto or paleo, but it’s workable as either.

(Melis Jansen ) #6

I eat strawberries a couple of times a week. I tend to use them as more of an accent piece to a dish than as the main part.

(Garry (Canada)) #7

Here’s some food for thought…and it’ll probably come as a big surprise for many people here:

Olives and Avocados are fruits!

Now doesn’t that throw a wrench into the Paleo/Keto confusion?! :joy:

(Karen) #8

So true, and tomatoes, and cucumbers.

K

(Ken) #9

Paleo guidelines recommend a 60/35/5% macro, which results in lipolysis, and is therefore ketogenic. The problem is that the concept has been distorted, as many foods have been claimed to be paleo, such as dairy, when they clearly are not. The level of carbs has also been distorted, clearly violating the 5% level. In many instances found on internet sites, you’d think paleo is based on lean meat and fruit, with a deemphasis on animal fat, which is what paleo is really about.

If you follow the true paleo 60/35/5% macros, eliminate grains, beans, and dairy while keeping carbs at 5% or below it works very well. It’s especialy good initially, as it usually eliminates foods that are genetically discordant for people. I followed it for my initial 180lb. fat loss, then I was able to add some potentially discordant foods back in, such as dairy. (Heavy whipping cream and cheeses in particular)

#10

Ken, we went through all this in another thread, and you pointed me to one resource that you said had these particular ratios for Paleo and I actually went through a lot of the information (because I’m interested in these things!). Various articles on the site seemed to specifically contradict that specific (or any specific) paleo macronutrient ratios - which makes sense, of course, because of the incredible variety of ecosystems in which humans have thrived.

I’m sure that somebody came up with those guidelines as being particularly good for modern humans - it’s basically a ketogenic paleo diet, of which I’m a big fan - and I agree with you that lean meats plus fruit =/= paleo. However, the idea that there’s ONE TRUE paleo macro on which our species evolved? no, I don’t think so; it just doesn’t make any sense.

tldr: show me the science

[apologies to the original poster - don’t mean to derail your thread!]

#11

map-en

Can you imagine a way that all these communities of humans spread all over the globe all had one specific ratio of macronutrients?

#12

A Paleo diet eliminates certain food groups and processed foods. Many people have sub clinical responses to grain and dairy. Paleo also tends to emphasize food quality. It’s not necessarily LC, but its easy to do so because many carb heavy foods are eliminated.

A “keto” diet isn’t a specific ratio. It doesn’t eliminate any foods. Following a keto diet means eating in such a manner that you maintain a state of ketosis. Individual carb tolerances vary tremendously. Metabolically healthy people can incorporate fruit and tubers in their while still being in ketosis. Fasting is another way to increase diet flexibility while still maintain a ketotic state.

(Ken) #13

The 60/35/5% macro is based on the “Whole Animal” concept. That’s the point. It’s what you’d be getting if you were eating herding animals, either by hunting or scavenging. The vast majority of the time of not only our specie, but our genus was spent eating this way.

The world was massively populated by herding animals right up until the “Younger Dyras” of about 12,000 years ago. Consequentially the break between the Paleolithic and the Mesolithic as well, with the beginning of Agriculture. Strontium analysis has pretty well confirmed this.

#14

I did some interesting reading (here, if you’re curious). It explains the variabilities and limitations of strontium analysis for drawing conclusions about diet from skeletal remains.

Are you saying that until 12,000 years ago, our ancestors ate exclusively herding animals? (really?! can you cite your sources? because that’s not how a lot of indigenous folks eat from the studies that I’ve seen)

What about coastal humans? Do fish have the same breakdown of macronutrients?

(Eric) #15

I just overlap keto Paleo and whole foods I only eat it if it fits into all 3 groups. Except dairy a lot of people don’t consider dairy Paleo but I do lol

#16

More or less, Depends on the fruits, low glycemic ones like berries are fine. You may want to look into the higher glycemic fruits and what all the fructose does to our livers!

(Steve ricci ) #17

Both good, i think that paleo don’t eat certain food that are relatively new to society. I think its just spitting hairs. High protein, low carb. That’s how i do it. I try not to label it

(TJ Borden) #18

As long as they all used my fitness pal, they would have.

#19

ha! thank you for this :joy:

(Ken) #20

Let’s put this a little more in an Evolutionary Perspective, beginning with Genus Homo. That takes us back around 2.3 million years, with the emergence of Habilus. Current theories ascribe his development from the earlier ardipithecines and australopithicenes to increased utilization of animals, probably mainly scavenging, but hunting is also possible.

Next came the Erectines, of about 1.4 million years ago. The first “Out of Africa” specie with nearly world wide distribution. They’ve sometimes been called The Ultimate Hunter, essentially living off herding animals. They were around for over a million years.

About six to eight hundred thousand years ago the Archaic Humans developed, Heidelbergensis in Europe, and Rhodesius in Africa. These were the parent species of both Neanderthals as well as Cro-Magnon, our current species, with Neandethals existing until around 30,000 years ago. Cro-Magnon emerged beginning around 200,000 years ago in Africa. Both species were hunters, living off the massive herds of animals found world wide. This lifestyle, in the evolutionary sense, showed such a high animal utilization that Mankind was clearly evolving towards Obligate Carnivory, as we lost our ability to make our own B-12 In a utilizable form.

Now came the seminal event in modern human evolution, occurring about 74,000 years ago. The eruption of the Supervolcano Toba, on the island of Sumatra. It’s estimated that this caused a world wide, thousand year long Volcanic Winter. This massively reduced human populations and created what is called a “Bottleneck” in human genetics, or a massive reduction in the diversity of human genetics. The majority of genetic lines were eliminated. It appears the majority of humans, (Cro-Magnon) survived in East Africa, as that has been identified as the area with the most genetic diversity found today. My own view is that it was due to the Great Rift Valley, with the lake ecosystems being based on thermal energy, rather than sunlight. Temperatures were also possibly moderated within the valley, due to the volcanic activity. So, volcanism nearly destroyed humanity, but probably also saved a remnant. Same goes for the herding animals within the valley. It’s possible that at humanity’s lowest point, there were only a few thousand breeding females found on the entire planet.

By about 50,000 years ago, Cro-Magon populations in Africa had recovered enough to begin migrations, the second “Out of Africa” movement, achieving nearly world wide distribution. People move quite a bit when living off migrating herds. Other remnant Genus Homo populations were either absorbed or eliminated. The most notable absorbtion is the limited presence of Neanderthal genes found in European genetics. As populations expanded, some groups were forced into marginal ecosystems, providing wider use of non herding animal food sources. This includes fish based sources such as salmon, which provided reliable, predictable runs that could be harvested yearly. However, the limited time scale does not mean there was any major loss of the meat eating, herd following lifestyle, in the genetic sense.

All this occurred up until the aforementioned Younger Dryas, which caused the loss of the vast majority of Northern Hemisphere ice age megafauna, with the notable exception of the American Bison, propelling Mankind into Agriculture.

Sooo, we literally have millions of years of adaptation towards obligate carnivory, with other food sources, especially agricultural ones, not being around long enough to cause significant changes in the genetic sense.

For fun, I recommend the movie “Quest for Fire”, a fun movie showing interaction between Cro-Magnons and Archaics.