Keto + IF stopped losing weight

[atomicspacebunny]

Thing is I actually feel good when fasting and am not craving/starving at all.

I wish we could measure our insulin at home but if we could see it, we would have better idea what is going on with our own body on an individual basis because eventually long-term fasting too much will do the opposite because your body will use its own parts (catabolism = high insulin; basal load) to keep you fat.

[lfod14]

“Research” to accomplish what? Since going higher protein I’ve put muscle mass back on, feel better and look better. I’m loosing fat again, progressing in the gym again, and my bloods back up that nothing bad is happening. This constant fear of protein and GNG and obsession with ketone levels need to stop. All it does is screw people up and make them fear what they don’t need to.

If the big scary GNG machine is getting me from my “high” protein, which isn’t even high, usually around ~200g/day then my Insulin and sugars should be high and my A1C would be affected right? Let’s also note that my average carb intake is around 60-80g net! Which by standard keto thinking should REALLY destroy my bloods right? WRONG!

[amwassil]

My understanding is that ‘fear of GNG and overeating protein’ is overblown. GNG is primarily demand driven, not supply driven. In ketosis, the total amount of glucose required is very low. Just because you eat more protein than gets utilized for maintenance/repair and muscle building doesn’t mean it’s auto magically converted into glucose. Protein also serves many other functions in addition to maintenance and repair. After deaminating, leftover/unused/unneeded protein/amino acids/nitrogen just get excreted. If you’re really overeating protein you will develop a body odor of urea.

More Than You Ever Wanted to Know About Protein & Gluconeogenesis

[Janie]

Many individual who think they are on a Ketogenic Diet are really on a high protein, high fat, low carbohydrate diet; they are not in ketosis nor will they ever be.

If they have ~1.0 ketones measured with a blood meter with a high protein diet do you still believe they aren’t in ketosis? And “high” is different for somone who does a lot of resistance training vs a couch potato.

[MarkGossage]

Consuming too much protein takes you out of ketosis, via gluconeogenesis.

Nonsense my friend.

[OgreZed]

I used this calculator from reddit:
https://calculo.io/keto-calculator

IMO, that one is terrible. I’ve tried to get the Reddit FAQ to remove it.

I prefer the https://keto-calculator.ankerl.com calculator.

When I used the one the Reddit FAQ suggests on my starting weight, current weight, and goal weight, it gave me absurdly different macros between the three, drastically varying the proteins macro. Which shouldn’t really change, since lean body mass shouldn’t be changing (unless someone is working out to put on muscle tissue).

r/keto - The calculator recommended in the FAQ should be changed

r/keto - How to handle calories on Keto

[atomicspacebunny]

Let’s also note that my average carb intake is around 60-80g net! Which by standard keto thinking should REALLY destroy my bloods right? WRONG!

Check this out “Insulin Load” this correlates with Butter Bob Briggs citations?

Being the liver can only store or make 100 something grams of glucose (carbs) and muscle glycogen can only be used for muscles?

Add fiber to any diet and the actual uptake of carbs is reduced by half by the gut microbiome; “…what you eat, they eat to?..” as Professor Robert Lustig MD coins it?

[lfod14]

Hmmmmm, now this is interesting. With my numbers today my 132g net carbs which is 182g total, has an insulin load of 228! I do supplement fiber, so by the end of the day it’ll be funny to see how much difference that makes.

Add fiber to any diet and the actual uptake of carbs is reduced by half by the gut micrbiome.

Never would have given it that much credit! But given the way I’ve been tweaking the last 6+ months I believe it. It’s like everything I believed for the last couple years was (almost) all wrong. Way more protein, I do better. Less fat, I do better. Way more fiber, I do better. More (good) carbs… I do better. Still very much eat LCHF and still keto many days but not the black and white thing I did before. Everything changes with context now.

[Dave_7]

I used this one too and it gave me the same numbers, chose the middle ground for protein which was 143g for me, same like the calculator here.
Only diff was protein, 10g more in this calculator than the one from FAQ, 100 more kcal.
I will go for 1850-1950 kcal daily with 20g carbs and around 140g protein and 130g fat depending how hungry I am I guess…

[KennyCrox]

f they have ~1.0 ketones measured with a blood meter with a high protein diet do you still believe they aren’t in ketosis?

Ketometer Reading

Interesting question. It appears, as you know, that a reading of 0.5 means you are in mild ketosis. A higher reading like 1.0 mean you are in a little deeper ketosis.

However, there appear to be more to that story.

Individuals new to the Ketogenic Diet usually register fairly high ketone readings. That meaning there is more ketones in the blood.

Individual who have been on the diet for a while that are “Keto Adapted”, then do have lower reading: fewer ketones are in the ketone are in the blood.

The main premise is that the body adapts. It is utilizing more ketones for energy. It only produces enough ketone for your energy demand. Thus, the lower reading.

This has to do with…

The General Adaptation Syndrome

This adaptation process applies to diet, exercise, healing, etc.

Han Selye, MD, PhD in 1923 determined that when stress was place on the body, such as infections or disease, one of two things occurred. Either the body adapted and became stronger or you died.

That is the prime mechanism behind giving someone a flu shot. Your body adapts to the flu. It become stronger. So, the next time you encounter the flu, you are resistant to it.

The General Adaptation Syndrome is the underlying mechanism behind Periodization Training, as a means of increasing performance for athletes and others.

The General Adaptation Syndrome is the underlying mechanism behind rotating calorie in a weight loss or weight gaining program, as I previously posted.

Now let’s circle back to some information on individual new to the Kegogenic Diet producing more ketone that individual who are Keto Adapted and have been on the diet for a while with…

# JIMMY RANTS 074: Higher Ketones Don’t Equal Weight Loss On Keto (But Lower Blood Sugar Does) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo28xP9ToXs&t=238s

Jimmy Moore goes into this in this video.

Another factor that appear to determine if you are utilizing ketones or glucose for energy is…

The GKI, Glucose-Ketogenic Index

Dr Thomas Seyfried came up with the GKI’s use for cancer patients. As you know, being in Ketosis appears to provide some positive benefits for cancer patients, as well as other health issues.

The GKI is now being use to determine if you are utilizing ketones for energy or glucose. Thus, an elevated Ketone Reading may not provide the whole story of if you are in ketosis or not.

Here is the…

Glucose-Ketone Index Calculator

What is the GKI? And how do you calculate it?| KETO-MOJO

This method allows you to determine your ratio of Glucose to Ketones.

The chart listed determines if you are in…

1) High Therapeutic Levels of Ketosis

Research has determined to be the most effective area for cancer patients. It’s hard to get to this level and maintain it without medical intervention.

I was in this level once. I got there by consuming a lot of MCTs in my diet. It wasn’t something that I could maintain.

2) Moderate Levels of Ketosis

This is level is recommended for Type II Diabetes, Obesity, Insulin Resistance, etc.

This appears to an area that is fairly easy for maintaining ketosis for most individual.

I find this level fairly easy to maintain.

3) Low Levels of Ketosis

This level is works for “weight loss and health maintenance”.

I’ve been in this area a couple of time. It appears it was due to mainly consuming more protein than I should have.

4) Not In Ketosis

If your number is in this area you are not in ketosis, even with a 1.0 ketone reading.

I have been in this level before as well. It appears that my protein and carbohydrate intake was a little higher than it should have been.

Rather then counting my protein and carbohydrates, I eye balled it. That amounts to guessing how much money you have in your bank account and then writing a check.,

Guessing is never good. I knew that but just got lazy.

[quote=“Janie, post:45, topic:101928”]

And “high” is different for somone who does a lot of resistance training vs a couch potato.[/quote]

Thomas DeLauer On Training Ketones

Yes, it appears that ketone levels for resistance and other type of training may be a little different than for a couch potato.

DeLauer has a video on this. I have the video but can remember where I saved it. So, I can’t post it for you.

Another thing to consider about an exercise program is…

The Energy Systems and The Ketogenic Diet

There are three Energy Systems. Two of those three are effective for Training On The Ketogenic Diet.

1) Phosphagen Energy System

This system utilized ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) for fuel. This system is used for Maximum Strength, Power and Speed Training. Lower Repetition are performed with all of these methods.

ATP is depleted in less around 15 seconds or less. Around 50% is restored in 30 seconds with right at 100% restored in 3 minutes. Thus, rest periods between in this area allow for some to complete recovery for the next set.

The Phosphaen Energy System doesn’t run off ketones nor glucose. Training in this energy system works for individual on a Ketogenic Diet or Standard American High Carbohydrate Diet.

2) Glycolytic Energy System

This system predominately utilizes glucose. Fairly intense training that is between 30 seconds to 2 minutes is glucose driven. Individual on the Ketogenic Diet don’t appear to perform well in this zone.

3) Oxidative Energy System

Decades of research have demonstrated that Keto Adapted individual preform well with Endurance Training/the Oxidative Energy System.

The Take Home Message

Individual on the Ketogenic Diet are going to elicit a greater effect by limiting their training to the Phosphagen or Oxidative Energy System; avoiding the Glycolytic Energy System.

Kenny Croxdale

[Janie]

My n=1. I have been on a ketogenic diet for 2-1/2 years and I still see the claim that you won’t turn a pee stick purple after fat-adapted. True for some - not for me. I still do and if I do EF I can turn it very dark purple. I am not the only one as evidenced a thread started by @amwassil asking veteran ketoers to do a test out of curiosity. So the assertion you get more efficient at producing and using ketones does not always apply.

As for GKI - I can get mine below 3 on day 1 of fasting, 1-2 by day 2 and below 1 by day 3 because my ketones rise into the 5-6 range and blood glucose drops into the 60’s (54 once).

On a normal non-fasting day it runs 3-5 depending on how long its been since I ate when test. I challenge whether 4+ is not in ketosis. The last table I saw was < 1 highest therapeutic, 1-3 high therapeutic, 3-6 moderate level ketosis, 6-9 low level ketosis, > 9 no ketosis. **edited to add ** I misunderstood your numbers - the table in your link are the same as mine.

So I should re-phrase - if your GKI < 6 and you eat a high amount of protein are you still in ketosis or not? Need a data freak who eats lots of protein and can measure blood glucose and ketones to chime in LOL.

[KennyCrox]

My n=1. I have been on a ketogenic diet for 2-1/2 years and I still see the claim that you won’t turn a pee stick purple after fat-adapted. True for some - not for me. I still do and if I do EF I can turn it very dark purple.

You may be an outlier.

I am not the only one as evidenced a thread started by @amwassil

All I saw was a list of amwassil’s post. If you could post where his post, I’d like to see it.

So the assertion you get more efficient at producing and using ketones does not always apply.

It may not apply to you or amwassil but the urine strips are considered not to be accurate at some point. That was true in my case.

As for GKI - I can get mine below 3 on day 1 of fasting, 1-2 by day 2 and below 1 by day 3 because my ketones rise into the 5-6 range and blood glucose drops into the 60’s (54 once).

I am impressed. You may be a super responder.

if your GKI < 6 and you eat a high amount of protein are you still in ketosis or not?

Define what “eating a high amount of protein” is?

Need a data freak who eats lots of protein and can measure blood glucose and ketones to chime in

That would be nice. And the would apply, how much protein are they consuming.

As a data freak myself, I’d like to see their percentages, grams, and caloric intake.

Thanks,

Kenny Croxdale

[petert]

Gaining weight is going to occur if you are in a calorie surplus; no matter what diet you are on.

Comprehensively wrong.

Thousands of words and putting your name everywhere like some weird branding exercise doesn’t stop you being completely wrong, either.

The usual CICOpath denial of hormones and so on at work.

Bunny mkII

[amwassil]

You may be an outlier.

I am not the only one as evidenced a thread started by @amwassil

All I saw was a list of amwassil’s post. If you could post where his post, I’d like to see it.

Fat Adapted and Still Excreting Ketones in Urine: Survey

So we’ve all heard the reports that the lowly urine keto stix aka ‘pee sticks’ are only useful for the first few months for newbies. Once you’re beginning to fat adapt the wasted ketones, specifically acetoacetate, slowly and steadily decreases in the urine until the test strips show nothing. End of story. Maybe not. I recently became aware of anecdotal reports by fat adapted or presumably fat adapted individuals also showing colour on the strips months after they should be showing nothing. Wha…

[KennyCrox]

Nice post. I like the protocol your requested.

Kenny Croxdale

[CaptainKirk]

First, EVERY time you eat, you are producing SOME insulin. That’s why fasting works so well.
Second, Check EVERY assumption. Are you chewing gum?
Are you using artificial sweeteners?

Avocados are FRUITS and you will be surprised that they contain more carbs than people realize!
Cut those down, IMO.

Check your blood levels.
Add in some low-intensity walking / Movement…

I wrote this to help others:

The Levers of Power (What to Measure, What to Control) to avoid stalling/stalls

Okay, for the record, I am down over 110 lbs, I am at my goal, and now in maintenance. (ie, I’ve done the work, you might learn something from my misfortunes, LOL) What I am trying to do is summarize the Levers we can use to control our fat lass, break stalls, and generally understand what is going on inside of us. First, BS=Blood Sugar (Glucose), BK=Blood Ketones. I don’t trust Urine sticks, they don’t work for me. IF=Intermittent Fasting, OMAD=One Meal A Day, and ADF=Alternate Day Fasting…

[Dave_7]

I consume avocados and artifical sweetener (erythritol) only in a smoothie, it adds up to 5 net carbs.
Other than that I only eat full foods, meat,eggs,vegatables, cheese, bacon… Im always under 20g carbs and hit my protein/fat goals I set up (134g fat, 142g protein), sometimes less…

I bought a glukose meter but it didnt seem to register my blood correctly eventhough I did everything as per manual…and tbh I wouldnt be comfortable to use it every day as it stings haha, unless there is other reliable way of testing…

[CaptainKirk]

Dave,
When you are not progressing, STOP with the net carbs, always use TOTAL carbs.
My buddy can consume 40g of carbs and be in SOLID ketosis. I have a 5g limit. Those are total.

Glucose Stick. adjust the DEPTH, there is usually a twist setting. Also, do the EDGE/SIDE of your finger (there are fewer nerve endings!). It takes about 6 sticks to get the feel for it. The OneTouch Ultra device is REALLY light…

About the glucose meter, go to the Pharmacy, and ask for help using it. Try not to pick a super busy time. You will be surprised how helpful they are.

KETO is NOT about being < 20g of carbs. That is a “guess” that applies to most people.
And if you listen to Phinney/Volek/Westman… They ALL suggest total carbs! Your carb limit is lower. Get closer to ZERO for a couple of days. See if that helps!

And MonkFruit and erythritol will BOTH cause a sizeable insulin spike in me. (On a glucose meter, test every 15 minutes for 60-90 minutes, and do a baseline, then consume a good quantity of mostly the sweetener, not much for other calories… Then keep testing. If insulin was pushed, you will see your glucose actually go down! Seeing this with Coke Zero caused me to give it up forever!)

Finally, did you know, that just swishing a sweet liquid around your mouth and spitting it out will produce an INSULIN response? (Dr. Ken Berry).

[CaptainKirk]

Dave one more thing. I made the mistake the first time of loading the blood into the strip, then inserting it.
Someone else made the same mistake.

This is usually designed to put the stick in the machine, turn it on, prick your skin, and wait until the blinking droplet of blood shows up. Then touch the droplet to the stick. I use more of a SPOONING motion. Coming it at from the bottom and scooping the blood into the stick…

HTH

[PaulL]

It seems like the elephant not being addressed is exercise. What are you doing for exercise?

Exercise is not necessary for fat loss. It has many other benefits, but that is not one. A well-formulated ketogenic diet that provides sufficient calories and avoids inflammatory polyunsaturated fatty acids (in other words the fat in the diet should be mostly saturated and monounsaturated fats) will promote fat loss quite apart from exercise. If I, a notorious couch potato, could lose 60-80 pounds with no exercise whatsoever, that shows that exercise is not necessary to losing fat.

The benefits of exercise include the promotion of mitochondrial (and thus metabolic) health, muscle strength and growth, and bone-building, among others. Just not fat loss.