Keto and cycling one year on

#41

Will definitely work on it. Thanks

#42

Had a good ride today. Finally got up the courage to ride in a fasted state. Did take a Vespa prior to ride to see what it did. Felt like I had plenty of energy and was not hungry even 4 hours after finishing ride. I also concentrated on keeping cadence over 80. My average power for ride is what it usually is but I felt better when finished. I will try next group ride fasted without the Vespa. A
Expensive to use on every ride.

(ianrobo) #43

oh yeah, I only use i for special efforts. The untold story with Keto is that it massively increases your aerobic base and that is key for most forms of exercise

(Ross) #44

Well I guess the concerns about POWER output on Keto may be misplaced.

Was having a chat about this with someone recently:

They claimed carbs were needed for power in cycling…but they study was only 6 weeks, 3/4 women and non-athletes (lots sedentary).

Did you observe a major change in your performance after the standard reported 3-4 week keto adaptation period?

(ianrobo) #45

Nice Study but not long enough of course, however this bit

Urinary ketosis was detectable on 97% of the days

Of course is not the method we think is a good way of seeing Ketosis, is it ?

SO we have to retain skepticism

(Ross) #46

Interesting observation on the ketosis measurement method.
Still, probably the easiest way for such a simple study.

I share your feelings about study length.

Sure “adapted” after 3-4 weeks, but how adapted and is there longer term adaptation? I’d guess yes based off of personal experience.

Also, how relevant is such a study on a non athletic general population? Does training change or augment keto adaptation? Drawing a broad general conclusion on the usefulness of keto adaptation in athletics from test on couch potatoes seems…well…stretching it quite a bit to be kind.

I wrote the author from my .edu account asking for clarification on the data. I’d love to get a look at the spreadsheet.
-What were the measured differences by gender?
-Was there a difference in measured power when sorted by activity level?
-Was there … when sorted for both gender and activity level?

Still, I do love the simplicity. This sort of study could be easily repeated by a bunch of grad students at almost any university with a decent kinesiology department and a gym.

(ianrobo) #47

anything helps but Keto adapted is one thing, fat adapted is a further step on the path as well

(Ross) #48

I don’t understand…

Are you making a distinction between being in ketosis (~1 week) VS being keto adapted (min of 3-4 weeks)?

(ianrobo) #49

Nope but a distinction in being Fat adapted as per Keto adapted. Fat adapted is for exercise of course and ultimate test is if you can do extensive exercise in a fasted state, that is different from Keto adapted which for me is when you produce Ketones.

Fat adaption can be much longer for some people and I want to see studies over a year of someone being fata adapted and build upon the FASTER study.

(Ross) #50

That’s a useful turn of phrase. Speaking with the uninitiated, there’s confusing surrounding the fact that a person can be in a state of ketosis yet not keto-adapted. Fat-adapted may be a better use of language & avoid potential confusion.

FASTER was amazing! I only wish there were more studies of long term adaptation & more data points taken.

I openly wonder about a psychological element to fat adaptation too. Beyond the physical changes, coming to trust our new energy source…know it will be there when we need it…not have to hold back in fear of bonking…that’s pretty major.

What are the physical changes beyond the 3-4 week window? Considering my need & desire for meals/food has continued to decline over the past 2 years, I do wonder.

(ianrobo) #51

Fat adaption though is for those of us who are into sport as for most people no need to use fat adaption like that.

What FASTER showed was that fat oxidation was at much higher levels of power than first thought and this is deeply significant for all fat adapted athletes for obvious reasons.

(Ross) #52

1.5 g/m average and up to near 1.8 g/m with the best of the bunch I think it was.

I’m not sure how much to invest in VO2 Max but the LC group did have slightly higher which was the inverse of the short German study.

Fat oxidation curve was also shifted very significantly to the right so fat adapted athletes can burn fat beyond the limits of carb adapted. (about 10% higher vs VO2 max).

Is that what you are referring to as “higher levels of power”?
So while Volek didn’t explicitly measure the difference in output in terms of Watts (energy output/time) perhaps he captured it indirectly?

I do they had measured total power output directly.

(Ross) #53

Reading thru some of your posts, it doesn’t sound like you’ve experienced any noticeable drop in power post long term adaptation on the bike. Is that correct?

(ianrobo) #54

Is that what you are referring to as “higher levels of power”?

yep or in Power zones 4 and above, 1-3 are your typical fat burning zones and if fat adapted all fat and little Glycogen, now what they showed we can go into 4/5/6 and still burnt high levels of fat and keep those 2000 cal of glycogen for when we really need them

(ianrobo) #55

I did at the start but for what I want to do now at a very good FTP level (not looking ito increase) and using MAF now going faster and faster (with weight loss) at Zones 1/2/3 and benefits are obvious in especially recovery

(Ross) #56

I suppose still an open question if by fat adapting are we now in anyway at a deficit when it comes to accessing those glycogen stores?

(ianrobo) #57

as they become a secondary store the theory is yes if you need the top end power it is harder for the body to access it and thats why you slow down. It is why pro’s on Keto will Carb cycle before an event

(Ross) #58

Interesting! I’m not a biker so perhaps a little different for swimming.

I recall Noakes mentioning in a presentation that there was some evidence that fat-adapted athletes process sugar (when eaten prior to competition) differently. Perhaps doesn’t prevent access to fat stores? I’d like to understand more about that.

Considering we can only hold 1-2 teaspoons of sugar in our blood & doesn’t look like (from FASTER) that stored glycogen is reduced for fat adapted, I wonder what the carb cycle really does?

(ianrobo) #59

just ensures it is topped upend likely turns off Ketosis and thus I guess you switch back to carb stores for instant access whilst still being fat adapted for the longer endurance efforts.

From all evidence at the top level for athletes we know to be either Keto and/or LCHF they do do some carb cycling, However say for a triathlete, Ironman/Ultra then of course fat adaption is fine as these people will never try for the top end power

(ianrobo) #60

So note this, this is from my longest override - 303km in June all on Keto, no way I could have done it on carbs as my stomach would have messed up !

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So note the power, apart from one very high effort I was very consistent and careful and the HR showed this as well (until battery ran out !!) and thats the key of endurance sports. Not top end power but allow you to go faster and longer at the same HR as before. If you can do that then when you need to step up it then obviously doing it from a much higher base.

For that reason I now do no HIIT etc, simply not needed for my aims.