Keep breaking keto on and off for a year. any advice on how to stay on keto better?

#41

That was directed to Cap’n!

You are grand!

(Robin) #42

Lol…. When you told Paul, “I know people like you…”
I thought, we’ll duh. Who doesn’t like @PaulL ?

(Kirk Wolak) #43

@DidzisZ How is your sleep? Your Stress Levels? And are you counting TOTAL Carbs or NET carbs? (I always prefer total carbs. Nothing hidden, and some “fibers” affect me like real carbs).

I find that second time Keto people have their limits in place already (I know “this” is okay, and “this” is okay, and “this” is okay). And Maybe they are individually. But not on the same day.

For me. Beef, Salt and Water. Or fasting. I add walking just to help burn through the glycogen. (on an empty stomach), that helps. Nothing stressful, just some movement.

As @PaulL said, 0.5 is fine. Remember, when you first start your body doesn’t know how much to make. It’s wasting a lot of ketones figuring it out. Falling off the wagon, and coming back, it will tend to hedge it’s bets… Trust me, a 48hr fast will push your ketones up… Dr. Boz recommends once a week fasting until you hit specific Glucose/Ketone ratios (GKI)

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #44

Except that for me, eating an entire pizza would cause me to grow noticeably fatter. The heat-wasting occurs only when I overeat on a low-carb, ketogenic diet.

#45

there is no long enough :slight_smile: start wrapping your head around the words in their full truth-----long term lifestyle eating change.

it sounds like you are using it with some ‘end time’ and all cured and can go back to eating crap but we all know it doesn’t work that way so if this is you in your thinking, start thinking it is a lifelong commitment to hold those wonderful healthy benefits and there isn’t eating this way ‘long enough’ to cure anything. each meal effects our body and our life til the end has a gazillion meals left to eat…you want health changes to last you have to eat those gazillions meals on your keto plan.

I think also we all have ‘a click moment’ where ya say enough is enough. You might not have hit it yet. I had mine. I was on and off extreme lc into zero carb for like a year with jumping into some binge time with eating crap carbs and for a while, eating good I felt wonderful, then I binged off and felt like crap real fast but I continued that cycle for a while til one day I ate junky carby food and felt very ill and my brain clicked and I said ‘enough is enough, I am done’. I made a vow to me right there only way to health was STAY ON PLAN. every meal. every day. every week. every year. and I did :slight_smile: and it worked and I am now on a ‘new lifestyle eating plan for life’ and I feel wonderful.

So maybe it is more of a psycho game of acceptance this is how you need to eat to hold your good benefits just like @CaptainKirk said, I agree with that advice. Discuss with yourself your personal reasons that might trigger you to dump, I had many conversations with myself and believe me they work to help us, we all had our own issues to mentally work out :slight_smile: For me I just didn’t want to accept I had to dump all the yummy junky crappy food I darn loved eating :slight_smile: It was darn hard to do that and think, wow for life!!! but one day I put the foot down and said enough is enough and jumped on the ‘lifestyle eating change for my entire life’ and then it became a real thing for me. Not just some pretend game I was playing til I wanted to eat my yummy gross crap carbs LOL

So yea you will find you…keep trying but time for some brain game work for you to get thru your personal issues on why you go off plan. Most of us dealt with it, your turn! Wishing you the best!

#46

Have a great birthday Paul!

(Marianne) #47

Wow; he is a legend to me. Did you ever see him as your doctor?

(Marianne) #48

Not that I am practicing this - yet - although I think this is a great strategy that I am going to remember. I agree that once we have a lot of time under our belts, have slayed the food demon for the most part, and are fat adapted, that a lot of this becomes managing the mental vs. the physical. No point in stressing about not doing something (i.e. eating), when it can easily be rediverted by doing some small action to get out of the headset.

(Kirk Wolak) #49

No way. He doesn’t see regular patients. He has a staff for that.
They are well-trained, though. And I met him in person at a Keto Event in Colorado (Pre-Covid) The shocking thing for me was how short he is. But he was really kind and his intelligence is obvious.

Like many people, I had so much misinformation in my head on fasting, I decided to get some coaching and insight from them directly. (Knowledge is either earned or bought). Earning it has been REALLY expensive, LOL.

I learned so much in 3 sessions… I went from OMAD to only eating MWF (3 days a week) for months on end. The changes were incredible.

They were the first step to realizing that artificial sweeteners are evil to people with food addictions. And finding out my MSG experience is not unique was heart-warming! LOL.

If I get MSG in a meal, I know, because within a couple of hours I become RAVENOUSLY hungry, and it lasts for a couple of days. It’s an insane response.

They taught a lot of the measuring (Ketones/Glucose) and planning, and planning. And tricks for fasting. But 90% is in his books and his content online for free!

(Kirk Wolak) #50

@Fangs you nailed it. @DidzisZ we all come with this HOPE. Let’s be clear. If you got here from eating your old way. And you want to go back to it. Where will you end up?

I knew I switched when I realized I would gladly cut a check for $20,000 to someone to go back in time to when I was 19 and started my sit-down job. And set me straight on these details.

Meaning: I would rather go back in time, and change earlier… Than HOPE I could ever go back to eating that way. If I never have “Ice Cream” ever again for the rest of my life… I’m good with that.

But you might have to get there over time. I sure did. But it started from being really strict and then FEELING SO MUCH BETTER!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #51

Thanks!

#52

very true. it is a mental reset and most of us just keep thinking about the foods we eat is the big change, well darn one has to mentally accept this big change or one can’t lock it in.

it is a physical and psychological game happening for each of us like you said and the first is usually kinda the same for all us carb addicts, feeling bad eating them, sugar swings and hunger and feeling physically crappy, but that mental part of it, how to lock it in and stick to plan long term, woof, we all had to find our own ways to cement in the big change we desire.

My issue was just depression over the fact I was dumping carbs ‘FOR LIFE’ and it kept freaking me out. I was like this is unfair! Why me! Why can’t I eat some of those junky favs sometimes and it all be good? but in the end, I had to stop focusing on what I gave up and flip the entire brain narrative to ALL I could eat and love and focus on how darn great I felt not eating that crap and this was my way forward. All in, hang on tight for a wild ride and mentally come to terms with it.

I was a mess til I flipped my thinking about it all.

but yea, everyone has their own time line change for a mental reset and one most of us had to work on too.

#53

Going back to some old crappy (or just not good enough) diet is not a good idea, indeed. But if keto doesn’t work long term (but good for other things like fat-loss… some people can’t stop losing weight on keto, apparently, they must stop at some point if they can’t fix it), one may change to another woe, probably low-carb but not that low-carb.
I never was the type going back to old, not working diets or doing something that doesn’t comfortable to me (the two may be correlated) but I can understand some people work differently. Maybe it’s even important mentally. The idea of staying keto forever or even just for months is scary even for me let alone a fresh ketoer who may or may not need keto. But it may be needed for others. I experienced that both being too strict and being not strict enough easily mess up things in my life.
But I encourage everyone to be open-minded. This “I do keto for some months and then go back” is very odd to me. Maybe it works for some people. My SO’s fat-loss method is very temporal and then he goes back to his norm. It’s another thing that his normal woe isn’t his old bad one, health is important so he made changes. And I am here too, I have an influence.
This “I just do keto for a while” sounds like “no way I can give up my carby favs” and it’s not good. Usually not good, at least. People’s carby favs are usually pretty horrible and even they know about it, it’s so apparent (like full with added sugar and zillion not very normal ingredients).
Try out keto, fine… But be ready for changes and revelations for life. And for health, we need a proper woe. It may be not keto but it’s almost surely not what we did before if we come to keto fat or other problems where our food is the culprit. It’s very, very rare to have a great woe with some strange overeating and even there, we should change something to avoid overeating. At least some restriction (avoidance of some items, smaller eating window) is needed to make things right. But who have a great, near perfect woe these days, coming to keto as something is wrong? The old woe is probably not good enough.

#54

I think I’ll be keto for whatever remaining life G-d spares me.

You can eat well, delicious meals on keto. Plus, there are produce that one would have excluded under a low fat regime…but can eat under the keto regime.

(Marianne) #55

Wow; my props. What changes did you see? I’m interested to know.

(Kirk Wolak) #56

I lost 70 more pounds and hit weights I have not been at in about 30 years! (122 lbs total loss)
I was able to get my 3 Hernias fixed With a Proper sized Mesh (not something HUGE that would fold if I lost weight). So I was stuck NOT being able to exercise. Walking was it for me.

I had MUSCLE TONE. I could see my veins. I finally responded normally to cold (I was always warm), I stopped sweating. I don’t need anti-persperant, and my pits don’t stink like they used to. My psoriasis went away, my skin tags (all but 2-3) all went away. Shocked over how nice my skin looks, and even my wife noticed I was losing some gray!

I had a lot more energy than I thought I would have. I have no excess skin (well, age appropriate for a 55 year old).

My BP normalized (until I discovered LMNT drinks and the stevia in those started to derail me).
That sweet taste, plus an allergy to stevia was driving my BP up. As was pepperoni. Strange stuff…

Anyways, the psychological benefits of a clear mind are amazing. But I noticed that HIGH Ketones with LOW Glucose did not work well for my programming job. My Brain was resisting the switch to ketones. I couldn’t think. I could have 6.0 Ketones and 80 Glucose. I can measure my time solving Sudoku. they were horrible. Easily double to triple my normal times.
And thinking that hard left me tired.

Fasting is a stressor. Programming is a stressor. I can do ONE or the OTHER not both. For an easy day at work, I am fine. (NOTE: When programming, my BP goes up, and my glucose goes up 20 or more points… At least when I am “zoning” (being in the zone, crushing code))

Just like I had to give my body time to learn to work with Ketones. I have learned that I have to do something similar to perform at peak levels mentally. My brain was insulin resistant and heavily sugar dependent. (Years of programming and eating simultaneously, with loads of caffeine). For this, I am cycling on and off metformin. Gradually forcing myself to work mentally really hard while struggling through it. It will probably take me another year or so. I have seen improvements. I have hope.

I’ve been through Fasting Fatigue. Over Fasting. Pushing too hard (working on a ladder in the sun during a 48 fast. I came in side, felt light headed, layed down on the floor, legs on a chair to get blood to my brain, and woke up 3hrs later… Kinda stupid to push that hard).

The only downside is that after fasting long enough. You don’t get “hunger” signals the same way. I think you develop an innate distinction. I become nutrient seeking. I become HYPER, I lose the ability to sleep. I don’t feel right… That’s when I’ve pushed too far. So, I will break my fast to avoid serious things like that.

The AMAZING thing… When you get down to eating 5 meals in a week. The last thing you do is eat CRAP. I remember a friend offered to go to lunch and I would be getting burger patties at a fast food place. I was like… Dude, I will go with you, but I won’t eat. I want a RIGHTEOUS steak or it’s not worth the meal to me… (that was a shocker to me).

I realized that Scarcity Increases Perceived Value in that instant. I now valued eating better, because I did it LESS frequently. It’s a mind blowing idea. But if you got ONE MEAL a week. Would you waste it on JUNK FOOD?

(Marianne) #57

Very interesting.

Just wow. Congratulations!

When you say “programming,” do you mean computer programming? My husband retired from that and it was a stressful job.

For real? I’ve heard it, but it’s hard for me to believe, although I never fasted to the extent that you have. In the beginning, I’d do a 24-hour fast 1x/wk., but it wasn’t long enough to tighten up my skin. I have “bat wings” that I wish I could get rid of. If I lost the 10-15 lbs. I have left, I’m sure I’d have loose tummy skin. You don’t have that anymore (I mean, for the most part?)?

Are you still eating only three days a week? If so, is that OMAD, or how much do you eat? What time do you start your fast (i.e. after dinner?), and when do you end it (i.e. before dinner the next day?)?

I get that, too. Just got back from a three-day trip. I ate clean keto (except for any wine I consumed). I’d have a steak at dinner, but “lunch” would be a hamburger without the bun, hold the roll, fries and sides (unless my friend wanted some). Good, but I need more food than that to be satisfied.

(Kirk Wolak) #58

Yes, Computer Programming.

Absolutely. I cringe when I hear people talking about surgery. The ROPE SCARS are hideous. Your body is NOT dumb. It takes that collagen from your skin and breaks it down to use it elsewhere. But it REQUIRES DEEP Autophagy. A 24hr fast isn’t going to cut it. But you work up to it. When I started. I got to OMAD. Then Eventually Alternate Day Fasting. (When you need 3kCal/day, and your are fat adapted. Your body knows where to look!).

I am just getting back to fasting Sat/Sun. So this is day 2 of fasting for me. I will get back there, because I have been derailed and put 60lbs back on (lost a lot of people in the last 2 years, and was “using” food again. I can gain weight easily. especially under stress, then my sleep and eating shifts (I can clearly gain weight eating KETO junk).

Honestly, TRE (Time Restricted Eating) Is something I have to employ. In between stretches of programming, I often get the urge to “refuel”… It’s an old habit. And I’ve experimented with many things (like diet soda), and it just derails me. So, I am a work in progress.

The good news is that I have the information this time around. I know what to avoid.

Look, my view has changed. For the average person. STOPPING GAINING weight every year is job 1. Then Job 2 is losing a little over time, every year, while maintaining muscle/health.

Everything else is just us trying to fix a 20yr problem with a 20week dietary change.
Even Fasting… You have to do a LOT OF IT. If you want to get all of the benefits.
I don’t consider Intermittent Fasting the same as Fasting. For me a fast is well over 24 hours. (It starts with a full day from sun up to sun down and going to bed, without food).

Again, I am getting back on the train. Eating and Drinking PRISTINELY (beef, salt, water).
Now my fasting muscle is coming back. Within 4 weeks, I should be down to MWF Eating for 2 months. then I will change it up, but keep the clean eating. (To avoid extreme boredom/complacency, I’ve found I need to cycle through various concepts so the days are not all the same "mentally’)…

#59

I am also prone to this. Cheese makes it worse. The only reliable cure I have found has been two high quality probiotic capsules daily. I can’t seem to have normal elimination on a low carb diet without them.

It’s interesting that aside from water, gut bacteria is what mostly gives stool bulk. Drinking more water (the typical advice) never did a thing for me. Salt doesn’t seem to matter for me either. Maybe one day — and with time — my microbiome will sort itself out!

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #60

With me, constipation seems to be related to my salt intake. If I get enough salt, I am never constipated. I do eat some vegetables with fibre, but I make no special effort to seek it out.

Dr. Stephen Phinney has a couple of lectures available, in which he explains why lack of sodium causes constipation. I don’t claim to understand the details, but I do know that it involves the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone pathway and the colon’s ability to remove water from the stool as it passes through. Apparently if we are getting enough sodium, enough remains in the stool to keep it moist, or something like that.