Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

(Little Miss Scare-All) #121

I like to check your thread daily to make sure you’re still living.

(Karim Wassef) #122

Is there a formula for glycogen and water mass as a function of lean mass? I’ve run the numbers for the potential fat I can lose vs retain, but I haven’t worked out the equivalent for lean mass.

I feel good, so I do believe that it is helping purge unnecessary mass. I just didn’t think I had so much unnecessary mass. We’re now 8 days from the next DEXA scan, and I’m eager to see what we learn.

(Karim Wassef) #123

That’s sweet… I think? Little morbid but I’m grateful, maybe?

:joy:

I’m actually pretty vibrant. Productive at work. Excited about the future. Eager and going faster than I’d like… Feels a little like being a 45 year old in a teenager’s body. We forget what it was like to have massive growth hormones coursing through our bodies and how much it can effect behavior and thinking.

I shared with my wife that I should do that when we go on vacation to the beach for a couple of weeks - I’ll let you imagine the look of disgust she shared… but really, this intense energy feels wasted working in an office.

(Karim Wassef) #124

Here’s the weight trend from my phone app:

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7AE58AC8-7ADA-431D-AAB7-4787CB1A4EBF.jpeg750×823 208 KB

So I’ve really only cleared out the mass I started building before the fast. The idea was to synchronize fat and skin loss vs. starting with loose skin. I’ve crossed that threshold now … only 9lbs away from my leanest state.

(Little Miss Scare-All) #125

That about sums me up, nicely. It was meant for friendliness lol. I just have a…weird way about me sometimes. I’m an odd mix of Wednesday Adams with a concern and interest in others. :woman_shrugging:

(Doug) #126

What I commonly see for figures are that we store about 400 g of glycogen in muscle tissue, and 100 g in the liver. I’m assuming this is the mass of the glycogen by itself, i.e. not including attached water molecules.

Each glycogen molecule can have 3 water molecules attached. Water is almost exactly 1/6 the molecular weight of glycogen ( I’ve checked this in the past) so if fully hydrated, the glycogen would now weigh half again as much. If 750 g total then = ~1.6 lbs.

I would think that the more muscle mass we have, the more glycogen that could be stored, but it’s still not going to end up as all that much. And - coming from a ketogenic diet, glycogen stores will almost surely be lower than it coming from a carb-heavy one.

So I’d say that the glycogen depletion itself is not that big a deal. The loss in water weight must come from other sources, and it would be hard to pin it down. Less inflammation and the body’s response not to retain as much water - one would have to get frequent blood tests for inflammation markers, if that would even tell the whole story, there.

Even while supplementing with salt and other electrolytes, being in the fasted state has some substantial effects - the loss of intracellular water is one of them, and I’m guessing this has more effect on weight than does the glycogen level. Even while getting dehydrated, the water content inside our cells doesn’t change much for a long time - and when it does we’ll be feeling quite bad - I’m thinking this equates to a loss of 8 or 10% or more of our body’s water.

I’m guessing this is tissues getting less “puffy” as intracellular water leaves.

#127

Glad to know that you’re still with us :slight_smile:

I can imagine that there’s some pushing through that you might need to do to get to some deeper /more signficant level of repair or healing, but how do you know when feeling bad means it’s too much? (I remember watching a YT video of a several-week water fast and in the second week the woman was vomiting every day - gahhh!!! - but then she came out the other side feeling amazing). Fat cells definitely store things so as we burn them they’re in our blood stream again. Who knows how this might work in the gut but it sounds like you got a feel for that yesterday?

In any case, I’m glad you’re past it and that you’re feeling good!

(Karim Wassef) #128

That’s an excellent question. I don’t know if I have an adequate answer since I haven’t ever pushed myself to that point. There’s always some social or business event that gets in the way.

If “feeling bad” was an indication, then any single purge event should end the fast and that would diminish the real benefit.

The very crude but funny “snake diet” guy on YouTube basically says fast until you’re lean enough to see your abs again. That’s not exactly scientific, but I can see the logic. That usually happens under 12% bf and that’s technically my target. So a preset bf% target may be the more sophisticated version of his “see abs, then eat “ goal.

If there are pre-existing medical conditions, that definitely needs to be factored in. I do my own multi-day monitoring and I use scans every two weeks to see how things are going. If I was on meds or had a medical condition, I would want a doctor supervising. I might even do a checkup between my 21 day and 35 day fast phases.

But other than bf%, how can I tell if something’s gone wrong? Here are my thoughts:

  1. Discoloration of urine
  2. Unusual stool (blood, for example)
  3. Vomiting that isn’t mitigated with salt
  4. Dizziness, disorientation, or deterioration of mental faculties that isn’t mitigated by salt
  5. Any non-dull pain that doesn’t subside in 24hrs.
  6. Extreme loss of energy for more than 24hrs & not mitigated by salt.
  7. Blood pressure and heart rate that doesn’t reset to normal for more than a few hours & no mitigated by salt & hydration.
  8. Shortness of breath not mitigated by salt and hydration.
  9. Loss of motor function and coordinatio not mitigated by salt and hydration.
  10. If your spouse decides to call the paramedics - TBD?glu

All these are flags, but personally, I use blood glucose as my ultimate unbiased biological marker. Why? The body’s Internal stress response is usually invisible to us but the parasympathetic system is alert to it. Whether it’s a nasty call at work or a lion chasing you, or a digestive stress or other biological stressor, the liver makes more glucose through gluconeogenesis - this can come from protein or fat.

So if I’m running in the 45-57 range of glucose for days and suddenly shoot up to 67, I pay attention. This actually happened today but I feel fine & I don’t think that excursion was all that large. Now 120 & I get worried. Also doesn’t hurt that I had just been on a stressful work event when I measured + I was headed to the gym todo dreaded deadlifts - so confounding variables.

I’m open to more ideas. Health is the primary driver after all.

(Karim Wassef) #129

By the way, I typed the last response in the sauna for 36mins after lifting for an hour and it was back day… I think being lucid is an indicator that the tank still has some miles in it :smiley:

(Windmill Tilter) #130

I like extended fasting as much as the next guy. I fasted 30 days out of the last 60. That said, everything I’ve ever read has listed nausea as a compelling reason to stop a fast, let alone severe abdominal pain.

I’m a little uncomfortable with the term “purge event” as a description of what you experienced the other night. In the medical literature I’ve seen references to “abdominal pain” being a “significant symptom”. In the literature I’ve read, this abdominal discomfort is generally non-fatal, but occasionally it ends in the death of an otherwise healthy subject. The subject in Runcie et al. complained of abdominal pain on the 11th day and was dead by the 13th. Apparently the intestines can get a bit twisted up during fasting, sometimes fatally so.

I think that nausea and weakness, accompanied by severe abdominal pain is more than enough reason to call off a fast. The fact that you don’t think so makes me genuinely concerned. That’s just my 2 cents.

Usually I wouldn’t say anything, but we’re not talking about whether or not carnivore is superior to keto, we’re talking about very abnormal and potentially dangerous symptoms. There are newbies reading this thread too. Now I’ve said my piece and I’ll shut up. I wish you luck!

(Karim Wassef) #131

Appreciate the feedback but I didn’t have extreme pain. It was no worse than dull digestive pain - like what constipation feels like.

The difference is that it didn’t go away for hours & I couldn’t sleep. If I wasn’t fasting, I might have taken a laxative & been done. I just don’t see meds as viable while fasting…

The following morning was worse but it wasn’t extremely painful. Still dull pain but combined with nausea and exhaustion. It only lasted 30min until I had the BM and instantly felt better.

I drank in college and this was nothing compared to the aftermath of a single night of excess. There were three such events in all my time in college and I regret each one.

Also, I’ve passed a kidney stone :smiley: … that pain was unbelievable. I literally thought I was going to die and prayed God to take care of my family while in tears… yeah- that’s extreme pain. The doctor felt sorry for me but shrugged his shoulders and said “ok… it’s out”… talk about anti-climactic.

Also tore my bicep tendon lifting at the gym… it’s chronically with me now and the pain reminds me to pace myself and remember that I’m 45yo, not 15yo, no matter how good I feel.

So - I know pain and I appreciate all the love and caring :slight_smile:

If I experience severe abdominal distress and it doesn’t dissipate or is mitigated with salt and hydration, I’ll stop. That hasn’t happened yet. It’s emdedded in my list items 2-5 but maybe I should review and make it clearer.

Did I share too much? I feel like I did… :slight_smile:

(Omar) #132

karim

If I may ask

What are the indicators you are looking for to end the fast?

or is it a random period pick?

(Karim Wassef) #133

my target is 12% body fat.
my purpose is to use this period to improve mental clarity and muscle development/physical fitness.
my timeline is March 4th to April 28th.

I’m not ill - but I was headed that way. I plan to create the largest possible margin between myself and disease.

My current physique is comparable to what I had as a teenager, so I’m aging backwards almost. I will always challenge myself to do more and be more. I can’t really help it.

Even when I was obese, I couldn’t just sit on a beach and drink a mixed drink and relax in the sun. That lasts one day - then I have these ideas… things I can do to make things better - for myself and others around me. I hunger for challenge I guess.

Once I discovered ketones - the stage was set to do more and push myself to achieve whatever I wanted to physically. I had lacked the knowledge and I finally got it… I’m going to make the most of it.

#134

This is a fascinating read.

(Mel Simpson) #135

Do you have before and after pics?
Do you have a time limit in mind or are you going to keep going until your body tells you to feed it?
This is fascinating!

(Karim Wassef) #136

I plan to do this in two phases. The first runs from March 4th to March 24th. I have a DEXA scheduled for March 22nd to review whether to take a break of carry on to phase 2. Phase two runs from March 25th to April 28th. So - 55 days on 12% bf, whichever happens first.

I’ve done 12 days before. Tomorrow, this fast will be tied as my longest. Every day after that is a new personal best.

I would really like to hit at least 40 days - but the goal is still the whole 55 days.

(Karim Wassef) #137

Day 11
20.5% (bf%)
171.6 lb (total)
136.4 lb (lean)
35.2 lb (fat)
5.8 (morning ketones) -> 6.8 (night)
45 (morning glucose) -> 52 (night)

Day 12
20.5% (bf%)
171.2 lb (total)
136.1 lb (lean)
35.1 lb (fat)
6.4 (morning ketones) -> ? (night)
61 (morning glucose) -> ? (night)

Woke up sore this morning - so lifting yesterday definitely pushed me. I was also feeling the fasting chill more last night, so lots of salt and hydration…

Overall loss was 0.4 lbs with 0.1 lbs fat and 0.3 lbs lean. My feeling is that the damage from lifting + high salt intake drove a higher level of hydration. I don’t think 0.1 lbs of fat represent my energy consumption from fat. I expect that I’m at a point where my body is filling the adiposites with water to avoid cannibalizing them outright. So the next few days may continue with flat fat readings and maybe even an increase until I get over the internal setpoint threshold and then I expect a flush to clear it.

Given the soreness, I didn’t expect as much lean mass loss. Usually the muscle inflammation would promote water being withheld in and around the muscles. So similar to the fat water-holding scenario, I expected muscle water-holding scenario.

I don’t let the numbers discourage me, so it’s ok. Just another datapoint.

Stress levels definitely rising due to work and personal obligations. I have a big decision ahead of me. I’m still calm and much more mentally clear - but uncertainty stretching over a long period of time is creeping in and my glucose is higher than my usual 45-55 getting into the 60-68 range.

Not really bad results, but meh (as my daughter would say). :smiley:

(Little Miss Scare-All) #138

Dry or wet? I used to bring my phone in the dry sauna all the time lol. I miss having access to it. I’d go in there 15-20min after each workout. When I was sick, I’d take a dose of colloidal silver protein and sweat it out. Fastest thing to bang out a cold.

(Karim Wassef) #139

It’s dry but I probably sweat out a couple of quarts (I drink that much anyway).

Interesting silver remedy.

As long as I have water and salt, I can handle a lot of heat stress. Takes me 10mins in there just to break a sweat.

(Little Miss Scare-All) #140

I tried the steam sauna and hated it. I felt like I was choking on steam. Plus, I’m kind of a germ-a-phobe. A lot of steam saunas are tiled. Tile has grout. Grout is porous. Uncleaned grout from tons of steam is a breeding ground for bacteria and mold. So basically, I’m in there trying to do good for my body, meanwhile I’m inhaling god knows what into my lungs. It was a gym, and I can pretty certainly say someone wasn’t in there scrubbing those tiles as well as possible.