Karim's Extended Fast Tracker - come along for the ride

Alpha · 2019-04-15 07:28:16 UTC

It drops because excersise is stress leading to cortisol increase.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-15 07:31:09 UTC

Ending the night at 94G, 1.1K = 4.7GKI

Seems like I always overshoot on the last day of my refeed…

I did go heavy on protein so I think the 94G is gluconeogenesis from food sources… but it took hours to process. I take that as a good sign that my body got all the amino acids it needed and more.

Strange observation… while I fast and lift, my torn bicep tendon doesn’t really bother me much. But when I’m fed, the inflammation comes back and it hurts constantly. I was hoping the fasting would give it a chance to heal and rebuild but it’s still painful.

Tomorrow is DEXA. I will be OMAD so fasting until after the test and then dropping protein down to 100g and carbs under 20g. Basically, it will be a normal keto day - not fast or feast. Let’s see if I can target 3.0 GKI.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-15 07:33:19 UTC

It could be cortisol but that usually increases my glucose. I think the ketone drop is a measure of using ketones directly for the exercise.

It’s all slow weight lifting, so I expect it to consume fat vs glucose.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-15 13:59:41 UTC

Day 1 of phase 3 - OMAD day & DEXA today

I am constantly amazed at how my body can completely recover all the weight lost after a week of fasting in a couple of days - of keto eating even. Hydration and food flow is a major confounder, especially with high fiber foods.

The hope is that the real weight is unchanged but the composition is different (to the better). Also… excited to see if RMR recovered.

Today will be the evidence of whether cyclic fasting is comparable to continuous extended fasting.

1.8 GKI so the spike last night didn’t last…

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-15 19:36:44 UTC

1.5 hrs to DEXA

I’m strangely hungry…

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-15 21:18:00 UTC

Arghhh!!! Different machine and the data doesn’t line up. Says I gained 3lbs of fat and lost 1lb of muscle when I can see in the mirror that that’s not possible. The doctor at this clinic says he can’t explain it either and asked me to send him the other report so he can ask GE (they make DEXA) why there’s such a discrepancy.

Also- no real RMR. Just an estimate.

So frustrating…

Next session is at the other

Don_Q · 2019-04-15 21:42:41 UTC

What a bummer that it’s wasn’t the same machine.

I bet you could take 10 Dexa’s in the same day on different machines and not have any of them match. They’re only accurate to within a few percent. Variation is introduced by the hardware, algorithm, software version, sensor, etc.

I’d like to get one, because they’re way better than BI scales, but I don’t expect I’ll get the opportunity any time soon. In NY state you need a prescription to get one, and they cost around $300 in my area. I really hate NY.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-16 00:51:51 UTC

$300?

Don_Q · 2019-04-16 01:03:37 UTC

Technically it’s more than $300, because you need to have a Dr. appointment first in order to get the prescription to take the DEXA.

There is no point spending money on lobbyists to ban private competition like DexaFit if you don’t take advantage of it. I’m surprised it doesn’t cost more to be honest.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-16 01:05:42 UTC

sounds like you want my cheap Texas DEXA and I want your always available RMR…

maybe you should visit Texas and see if you like it down here. LOL

Don_Q · 2019-04-16 01:18:16 UTC

Too hot for me lol. I spent quite a bit of time in Texas when I was a management consultant. I spent most of that time in Dallas doing a distribution network strategy project for the roll out of Veriozon Fios. Then I spent a few months in Houston doing some inventory optimization work for Dupont, and lastly some reverse logistics work for Dell in Austin. Of the 3 cities, I’ve got to say Austin was my favorite.

My bad luck was that over the years, I’d always wind up in TX in the summer. Too hot for a guy raised in Maine. Luckily, I’d fly there each Monday, and fly back to Cambridge, MA every Thursday to enjoy the nice New England summers.

Alpha · 2019-04-16 04:17:32 UTC

Do you own oil well in texas lol

I would settle for measuring my billy circumferen e.

Alpha · 2019-04-16 04:21:20 UTC

I spend 4 years between Houston and Beaumint in the petrochemical industry in the 1980s

Summer can be too humid.

I was once almost murdered by fire ants

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-16 11:16:42 UTC

Day 2, phase 3 (4:3 cyclic fasting).

I decided to maintain the fasting but switch the days a bit. I’ll fast Tuesday Wednesday Thursday so I can eat on Friday given that the next “same machine” DEXA is this coming Saturday and I wanted at least one refeed day. It would be ~ 4 days of fasting stretching from Monday night (last food) to Friday night (next food).

So today was going to be an eating day but I’ll be fasting instead.

So with a full day of eating and drinking + flux, I’m at the exact same weight and composition as yesterday. Same bf% according to the scale.

Would have liked to eat another day just to see if the equilibrium would have gone up or down… but I can’t have an accurate DEXA on Saturday and fast 4 days without fasting today.

With no weight loss since ending the 19:9 fast, my only hope is that composition improved. Otherwise, I’d say that the cyclic 5:2 fasting isn’t working for me. I’m sort of polluting the result a bit with two weeks at 5:2 and this week at 4:3 but yesterday’s DEXA was supposed to fix that and it didn’t.

So 2.0 GKI - on target.

I will have to correct myself. It’s not that cyclic fasting doesn’t work for me. It’s that something in this cyclic fast may not be working for me. Could be the vegan protein issue or the Leucine…

No idea without data.

I feel good and I look better…

carolT · 2019-04-16 20:03:54 UTC

Karim,
Just curious if you have the resources to correlate the GKI with an insulin lab test?

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-16 20:09:21 UTC

It really relates indirectly to the insulin/glucagon ratio… not just the insulin.

Nomoreweighting · 2019-04-16 20:29:39 UTC

Love this graph! On the side of the graph the colours correspond to numbers, I just need to be in enough Ketosis for weight maintenance (and the mental clarity). Our Aussie numbers for Keto are a different measurement?

carolT · 2019-04-16 20:35:00 UTC

I was picking the insulin test because it’s easily available. Maybe the data would show a rough correlation, or periods of non-correlation that could be interesting.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-16 22:38:12 UTC

That would be interesting. I’ll do some research on it and see if I can find something that relates the two.

Karim_Wassef · 2019-04-17 04:01:20 UTC

so more research on Leucine

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Multiple effects of leucine on glucagon, insulin, and somatostatin secretion from the perfused rat pancreas.

V Leclercq-Meyer, J Marchand, MC Woussen-Colle, MH Giroix and WJ Malaisse, Endocrinology, Mar 1985

The effects of increasing concentrations of leucine (0.2, 2.0, and 15.0 mmol/liter) on glucagon secretion from the perfused rat pancreas were examined at various glucose levels (0, 3.3, or 8.3 mmol/liter) and in the absence or presence of either arginine (5.0 mmol/liter) or glutamine (10.0 mmol/liter). At a low glucose concentration (3.3 mmol/liter), leucine caused a dose-related biphasic increase in glucagon output in the absence of arginine, but only a transient increase in the presence of the latter amino acid. These positive responses were markedly reduced and, on occasion, abolished at a high glucose concentration (8.3 mmol/liter). Moreover, at a low glucose concentration (3.3 mmol/liter) and in the presence of arginine, the highest concentration of leucine (15.0 mmol/liter) provoked a sustained and reversible inhibition of glucagon release. Likewise, leucine (15.0 mmol/liter) reversibly inhibited glucagon secretion evoked by glutamine in the absence of glucose. Thus, leucine exerted a dual effect on the secretion of glucagon, the inhibitory effect of leucine prevailing at a high concentration of the branched chain amino acid and when glucagon secretion was already stimulated by arginine or glutamine. At a physiological concentration (0.2 mmol/liter), however, leucine was a positive stimulus for glucagon release, especially in the absence of another amino acid. Concomitantly, leucine was always a positive stimulus for both insulin and somatostatin secretion. The intimate mechanisms involved in the dual effect of leucine on glucagon secretion remain to be elucidated.

At a physiological concentration (0.2 mmol/liter), however, leucine was a positive stimulus for glucagon release, especially in the absence of another amino acid. Concomitantly, leucine was always a positive stimulus for both insulin and somatostatin secretion. The intimate mechanisms involved in the dual effect of leucine on glucagon secretion remain to be elucidated.

Someone may be able to interpret this better, but my read of it so far is that Leucine (depending on the dose) can stimulate the release of both insulin and glucagon. While fasted, the insulin would reduce glucose and the glucagon would increase ketones. It would also explain the previous article that pointed to Leucine as causing a reduction in the body’s generation of glucose AND the body’s use of glucose.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/659610/

CONCLUSIONS: (a) Infusion of exogenous leucine in prolonged fasting results in a decline in plasma levels of other amino acids, improvement in nitrogen balance and unchanged excretion of 3-methylhistidine, thus suggesting stimulation of muscle protein synthesis , (b) leucine infusion also reduces glucose production and to an even greater extent, glucose consumption, thereby raising blood glucose concentration ; and © the rise in plasma leucine in early starvation results primarily from a decrease in leucine clearance which drops progressively during starvation.

A new element that may be disturbing is the note that it stimulates the release of somatostatin which is a growth hormone inhibitor. This is confusing because Leucine is an mToR driver and fasting is a growth hormone driver.

I just can’t find a clear experiment of Leucine only supplementation while fasted…