K9 diet?


(Jason Christianson) #42

Nope, I’m not getting wound up at all, because I’m the one that’s happy with where things are at. I see I struck a nerve though :wink:


#43

Wow, I find this a remarkable number. Because it really has been rare in my career, but I suppose I could be an outlier. I have never had a current doggy patient of my own become diabetic without first having developed Cushings, but I’ve always been very cautious about steroid use too. The food could make a difference, I’m not sure. I’ve always been pretty vocal about not feeding supermarket food, so very very few of my clients do (can’t even think of any, off the top of my head).

Here’s an interesting, though purely anecdotal, story. For most of my career I’ve worked in a practice where all the doctors, including the practice owner, were pretty outspoken about feeding high quality diets with human-grade ingredients. As a result, probably 80-85% of our patients were eating foods that didn’t contain any of the diseased and decayed dregs of the meat industry (often labelled as by-products). If you stay away from by-products and fillers such as wheat/corn/soy, you also often automatically avoid a lot of the worst of the processed commercial foods and the random other ingredients they may contain.

The interesting but very illuminating thing was that when we would occasionally diagnose a 4, 5 or 6 year old (WAY too young to be getting cancer) with cancer, it was almost always (at least 90% of the time) a pet that fell into that 15-20% of our patients that weren’t on the high quality foods. In most other practices, with more patients eating foods laden with by-products and fillers, I doubt that correlation would ever have been noticed. But it was so glaring and impossible to ignore. I remember that whenever I notified my boss (the practice owner) that I had found a malignant cancer in a young animal (because honestly it always ruined my day and stayed with me for a long time so I had to talk about it), the first question he’d ask me was “what does that dog eat?”

This is why my new client visits take so long, and thankfully the practice where I am now will allow me that time. I spend a lot of time talking about food. Even when shopping at pet supply shops which carry the better brands, it’s worth checking labels for by-products and fillers, it’s the only way to know.


(Doug) #44

I think the overall rate in the U.S. is low, i.e. 1 in 200+. It’s been increasing, though - perhaps somewhat due to our aging population which ends up not exercising dogs as much?

Total layman here, but I have to think that obesity and insulin resistance develop much the same as they do in humans. Anecdotally - I’m sure that food makes a difference. A horrendous amount of white-flour-dough pizza over the years did it to a Dachshund/Bassett Hound mix, and a friend of mine had a magnificent black female Great Dane who drank too much beer. Eventually the owner realized that alcohol and the hops content of beer are really bad for dogs…


#45

Oh boy. I don’t spend time talking to clients about not giving their dog beer, and now I’m going to have anxiety about that. Thanks a lot! :joy:

I totally agree food makes an enormous difference. Just not sure about the mechanisms, because we do see variation in responses among species. Given the terrible food a lot of pets get, and the obesity rates in dogs, I’d have expected to see a lot more Type II if it were the same. But one thing we discussed on another thread is how prevalent pancreatitis is in dogs (and cats). We are taught that it’s correlated with fat intake (for dogs, especailly) but I suspect the real story is much more complicated and I wouldn’t be surprised if the cheap carbohydrates that make up a lot of commercial diets are implicated in the future.


(Ken) #46

I’m afraid the only background I received on him was that he’d developed TTD and that was the reason the trainer had passed him along. Another person had him and he wasn’t able to keep up with his other dogs. By the time I got him he’d just started the Wasting Stage, and he had constant flatulence and was obviously very weak. It only took a few days for his GI tract to normalize, and he began acting more energetic and began filling out immediately. Besides him being a fine English Setter, I really wanted to see if nutrition would alleviate his condition. He tested clean on Diastix in around two weeks, (if that applies to dogs) and six months later was fully able to hunt in the Field. He was a fine dog, like many other dogs I’ve had that were prior kennel dogs, he was inseperable from me and was a great companion.


(Ken) #47

Hardly, it’s your dog. Believe what you want. At least you don’t appear to be planning to eat him.:grinning:


(Jason Christianson) #48

I honestly have no idea any background. I’ve just noticed friends, or friends of friends that need to give their dogs injections.

What? If you are willing to elaborate, I’d love be to elevated another notch out of my ignorance here.

This is what my vet has recommended for our dog:

The first handful of ingredients;

Chicken Meal, Ground Rice, Ground Barley, Chicken Fat (Mixed Tocopherols Preservative), Dried Beet Pulp, Dried Egg, Ground Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Yeast Culture, Fish Meal,

So my question would be whether “meal” is considered a byproduct.


(Ron) #49

This is my choice of food for my dogs and feel it is a good one.


(karen) #50

I’m fascinated!!! Are they really ok with this? (I know, nutritionally I’m sure they’re fine, or probably better than fine. But do they not drive you crazy? Since I’ve done away with the kibble dish, my cats will make me insane if they don’t get fed at least three times a day.)


(Ron) #51

When I first start them (2yrs old) they tend to lay by their food dish (or feeding station) as to sort of begging but this gets less as time goes on and they get accustomed to the routine. Dogs are very routine oriented and prefer structure so it doesn’t take long for acceptance.
I am in constant amazement of their ability to know time (without a watch) from within. They are always at their food dish on feeding days within 10 minutes of time to feed. And I swear they know how to count day! :hushed:


(Janet) #52

There is a LowCarbVet, Jimmy Mooore interviewed him years and years ago for a “Catkins” diet, now he eats a more keto ratio himself to help manage cancer. Travis Einertson, DVM
https://twitter.com/LowCarbVet
http://www.postbulletin.com/magazines/rochester/i-have-a-way-to-beat-this-thing/article_7a354f74-7c7c-11e7-bb4b-d3bf08879d10.html

Also check what Dr. Shawn Baker feeds his dog.


(Ken) #53

I suggest to everyone that you calculate the macros for your commercial dog food. Then ask if you’d feed yourself that macro. It puts things in better perspective.


#54

Heck, just read the ingredient list…:face_vomiting:
& if you dont know ezactly what something is… look it up… some of that cr@p is scary

This is why my dogs are on a raw diet, meat, bones, ofal, eggs, fish… all the good stuff, pretty much keto for dogs .
Looking into canine diet was actully what led me to primal/paleo, then keto for myself


(Jessica Lucia) #55

I’m looking to change my dogs food, but they are both small, one is a chihuahua. I’m curious how big the pieces of kibble are in this.


(Ron) #56

https://www.google.com/search?q=picture+of+Dr.Tims+dog+food+kibble+size&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=ESsQh3l_
This tells more about it.


(Shayne) #57

Sorry for the hijack, but I have a severely overweight cat and the vet had me put her on Hill’s Science Diet for weight loss and, sure, she lost a little weight, but her coat got dull and she started pulling her belly fur out. After another thread on the subject of pet food, I checked the label and realized that the food the vet wanted her to eat didn’t have any meat in it - it was all grains, fruits, and vitamins. I switched her back to her Blue Freedom and her fur is back to normal and she doesn’t yell at me anymore about being hungry all the time. Unfortunately, she gained some of the weight back. She’s nearly 10 years old and 8.2kg. I guess I’ll have to come check out the calculator later to compare the food I feed her now to the chart. The vet she sees said she was surprised that a cat had a grain problem…she said it’s usually a protein problem (it doesn’t make any sense to me, but what do I know).


#58

No, you’re fine with meal, it’s not considered a by-product. I believe it tends to be used as a protein concentrate. Just looking at the ingredient list and overall analysis, that looks like a decent food to me. Some may object to the rice and barley in it, and I don’t think those are necessary ingredients, but just as in people, I believe there are different levels of carb tolerance in dogs and if your dog does well on this food, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. (Note this may change over the course of your dog’s lifetime, just as our own carb tolerance can change. This is mostly why I tend to go grain-free for dogs, it may be okay but I’m not convinced they need it.) You can always continue to supplement the protein and fat content as you’ve been doing with the egg and lard. Personally, I’d rather see a dog on this food who is getting fresh ingredients like eggs added, than a dog entirely on kibble no matter how high-quality it is. Sounds like you have a good vet who thinks about nutrition, you should tell them about your success with the lard, they may be able to use it to help other pets!


#59

I’m guessing she was referring to specific protein allergies, which do happen but in my own experience I see them very infrequently compared to dogs (her experience may be different), plus I see far more hair-pulling skin allergies in cats that can’t be fully explained with a single main ingredient, leading me to think they could be related to myriad other ingredients (preservatives and such) in commercial food. There’s no question that the Blue Freedom has less of that.

Allergies are also a different issue from the metabolic issues that arise from grains for cats. Grain-free high protein wet foods in cans are usually helpful for weight loss, kibble often causes weight gain. Of course, if you have the inclination to spend more time/money on it, there are even better options than that! You could check out the TC Feline site and the Feline Nutrition Awareness Effort sites for more info. :blush:


#60

I figure I’ll show the foods I feed my pets, because I’m bored and killing some time, and I’m just super-pleased with the results I’ve gotten. :grin: There are many great options out there though, especially over the last few years.

My dog gets Raw Bistro raw frozen food. Here’s the list of ingredients for the chicken formula which she gets most often:

Ground Chicken (includes bone), Chicken Heart, Chicken Liver, Chicken Eggs, Organic Kale, Organic Carrots, Organic Cucumber, Organic Strawberries, Organic Flaxseed, Organic Apple Cider Vinegar, Organic Kelp, Organic Coconut Oil, Sea Salt, Inulin (extract of chicory), Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Polysaccharide Complex, Copper Polysaccharide Complex, Vitamin D3 Supplement

I’ll admit it’s damn near send-me-to-the-poohouse expensive, so for a lot of people it’s worth figuring out how to make it themselves if that’s an option for them. I’m very fortunate that due to my job I get to order it at wholesale prices. Here’s the analysis, which provides a good example of why you have to calculate the dry matter basis, all the values look very low until you factor out the moisture content:

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For treats, she gets dehydrated fish skins in the form of Polka Dog Cod Skins or Honest Kitchen Beams.

My cat gets homemade raw made with TC Feline, raw egg yolks, raw ground chicken thigh and diced raw chicken liver (raw ingredients from Whole Foods to avoid high-intensity farmed animals to the best of my ability, to decrease the risk of pathogens). The TC Feline ingredient list:

MCHA whole bone extract (bovine), gelatin (porcine), whey protein concentrate (rBST free), taurine, whole dried krill (atlantic), calcium carbonate, magnesium citrate, tocopheryl acid succinate (natural source of Vit E), Vit A palmitate, Vit D3

The finished mixed food looks like this. I divvy it up into small glass freezer-safe bowls and stick in the freezer, thaw as I go for feeding.

Overnight, I leave out some Wellness CORE canned food for her, because she eats like a horse despite being 18 years old and about 6 lbs, and if she runs out of food she’ll wake me up for it.


(Ken) #61

Anyone every wonder why the carbohydrates are not listed? Since “moisture” contains no calories, what do you think the true Carb content is? Yes, this is somewhat a rhetorical question, as I think the answer is obvious. It’s certainly not the same “Truth in Labeling” you find on human food.