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(Doug) #41

Indeed, Paul, but brutal malnutrition like after being a concentration camp for a long time is far different from modern willful fasting. There are conditions that make refeeding syndrome much more likely - much more likely than an otherwise normal person fasting for even 30 or 40 days - malnutrition (usually accompanied by being underweight), alcoholism, anorexia nervosa, some types of cancer.

Thanks, Nutbar, that is a good description. Yes - phosphorus (and magnesium, potassium and calcium) are mostly inside our cells (as opposed to sodium - where most of it’s outside the cells); blood levels of them are quite low, and those levels need to be controlled closely. Long fasts feature plasma as a declining percentage of blood.There can be problems with blood volume being gained fast upon starting to eat again (an example would be a lot of salty food that makes the body absorb a lot of water), this would reduce blood concentration of those elements - especially if eating carbohydrates with the subsequent higher insulin and other hormone response that has the effect of driving more of the ions (P, Mg, K and Ca) out of the blood and into the cells.

Some people do better/feel better by supplementing with salt or salt plus other electrolytes during a fast. But I don’t see it as necessarily needed, especially not if we’re talking about fasts of less than 10 days (or maybe 2 weeks). There are people who go 30 or 40 days with just water.

Here’s a guy’s account of a 40 day water-only fast. He’d previously ran a marathon on the 30th day of a fast, so it’s surprising what is possible. https://medium.com/@scottragsdale/40-days-and-40-nights-water-fast-fa493222e6a6

Bone broth (or anything containing protein) - Dr. Fung doesn’t mention autophagy here, but it’s one of the main benefits of fasting, in my opinion, and protein is the strongest suppressor of autophagy. If I felt like I needed it on a very long fast, like 2 weeks+ (never done it), then perhaps, but otherwise, no.

Now, if bone broth means a person can fast versus not fasting, and they desire to, then I’d say certainly - do it.

Taking vitamins - if there is a known deficiency, okay. Otherwise, if a person is feeling all right, then I would not worry about it all unless we’re talking about fasts of multiple weeks.

Usual activites, exercising, work, etc. - definitely. Exercise amplifies and intensifies the benefits of a fast.

I once ended a 10 day fast (stupidly, no question about it) by eating 4 Burger King Whoppers, buns and all. That’s a 200+ gram whack of carbhydrates. I did feel sluggish for about an hour afterwards. No other problems than that, but I should know better.

#42

How do their bodies work…?
I know it’s individual, heard about people doing 10 day mere water fasts without a problem, I know I can do a few days at least - and some people need eating salt even on IF…

My longest fast was only 5 days but when I got hungry, my body wanted pure sugar (well close. dried fruits). So I only ate that. Very little though. Next day I ate normal. I suppose it never would happen again, it was in my high-carb times… I suspect the fun drunken state on the 4th and 5th day was lack of sodium but I didn’t desire salt…

(Doug) #43

Good question, Shinita. When we’re just burning our own fat, we’re not going to need most of the substances that help the body deal with digesting and metabolizing food. We’re getting a very pure thing - our stored triglycerides.

Now, does that explain it all - why some people can go without salt, etc., when fasting? I don’t think so. Some people feel really bad when fasting - headaches, low energy, etc., unless they supplement with salt and/or other electrolytes, ‘ketoade,’ etc. A 68 kg or 150 lb person has ~270+ grams of salt in them, but I don’t know how fast it declines when fasting or at what lower level it becomes a problem.

#44

Thanks, I had no idea even about that number.
Depleting is depends on various things, losing plenty of water due to sweating surely makes it quicker… But I don’t know what is a normal speed. I just supposed that a few days is normal, one doesn’t exactly dies from a longer either (some people don’t consume ANYTHING for 10 days, not even water and survives… that has some conditions though) but sodium is vital, the lack of it eventually it will be a problem and I thought it will be rather earlier than later… Many people’s experiences hint at that.

30 days is very long, I probably would worry about quite many micronutrients. Some are fine for people who had plenty before the fast but I for one surely would get magnesium problems as I very easily get that due to my somewhat low magnesium intake. We can’t get scurvy that easy either… But sodium? That was surprising and I still don’t think it’s common to handle the lack of its consumption for many days… But never planned a long fast and never researched it, many people showed they need it even for a short fast though I knew not everyone… Now I got interested.

(Frank) #45

True.
I saw Dr. Boz on YouTube and jumped in the deep end.
I’m A good swimmer so I’m not to concerned.
As to appearance, thats not why I’m doing this.
It’s more about a healthy lifestyle.
20 above my normal 210 isn’t a huge amount.
I’m more looking to decrease inflammation.
My hip replacement was faulty.
They damaged my femoral nerve.
I’m constantly in a great deal of pain.
No pain meds, or any meds for that matter.
Better lifestyle, health, and reduce inflammation is what I’m after.
Would i do it differently?
No.
When you have trouble walking around due to the pain, you do what you can, as quickly as you can.
I’ll learn.

(Frank) #46

Great info.
I’ve revised it down to 3 and 3.
7 and 7 was a dream, or nightmare.
The cravings at this moment have went way down.
It’s all in my mind maybe?

(Frank) #47

lol
30 days…
That ain’t gonna happen in this lifetime for me…

(Megan) #48

Hi Frank, are you aware you don’t need to fast? Fasting is something some people do, but by no means all, or even most. How about learning how to eat ketogenically 1st, get your insulin down and let your body go thru adaptation. Fasting can be something you try later on, if you wish, but as has been said here, your body needs to learn how to start using fatty acids instead of glucose 1st. Your mitochondria need to heal.

So try eating low carb 1st and get that habit solid. Less than 20 grams of carbs (total or net, up to you), enough protein for your height and activity level and age (there’s some thinking we need more protein as we age to help preserve lean muscle mass), then fat for the bulk of your energy needs. Eat enough fat and protein to satisfy your hunger and repeat this every day. There is no need for you to panic and try extreme protocols, it’s important for how you eat to be sustainable.

(Frank) #49

Great info.
Well, I’m already at, I think, around 55 hours.
I’m shooting for tomorrow at 9am.
That would be 67 or so.
Then I guess I will eat low carbs.
20 or less.
The time since I’ve started, I’ve been looking at all the different food options.
I looked at the store today and I was blown away.
A wrap has 9 carbs?
Damn…
No bread at all.
I will do my best.
Things I’ve learned is that;

  1. I need a journal to write down what I eat and such.
  2. It’s a restrictive diet that includes some things I like.
  3. It’s not easy.

The craving seems to be gone thank God…
I’m ditching the water fast due to above advice.
I’ll get to the point where I’m comfortable with what I’m doing and the water fast.

(Frank) #50

Maybe 72 hours…
Journal time…

#52

Hi Frank, you’ve been getting some good advice here. Dr. Boz has some good info, but those YouTube videos often assume people have already read her books. If you are new to all of this and you like her style, I recommend you check out her books about how to do keto. Her first book was Anyway You Can, and is a good intro to keto and also tells the story about how she first started learning about keto as a way to slow the progress and eventually reverse her mom’s cancer. The second book Keto Continuum goes into more detail about various approaches you can take along your journey. But to start with she has people just eat keto for several weeks. She says many of her group members who tried to jump into fasting too soon before being consistently keto would fail. She has people check urine ketones to make sure they are actually getting into ketosis. You wouldn’t even get into checking blood glucose and blood ketones and doing things like time-restricted eating and longer fasting until you’ve been successfully eating ketogenically for a while. It is a nice structured approach. That doesn’t mean you can’t try jumping into the deep end if you want to, but her approach makes taking those new steps a lot easier. Those advanced approaches aren’t necessary at first, and aren’t even always necessary for everyone.

(Frank) #53

Thanks for the input…
I’m retired and 63.
Bad hip replacement so I am less active.
No meds at all.
I force myself through the pain.
I’m hoping this lifestyle decreases inflammation and it gets a little better.
I’ll take your sardines…lol
I love all those canned fish.
Herring is also amazing to me.
I’ve been looking for some smoked mackerel…
Mmmmmm

(Frank) #54

I’m going to order the books.
Thank you…
I have a BGL unit.
Mine is always high…
I havent checked it since I started the Keto journey.
Maybe I should?

#55

I enjoy checking my blood numbers to see how what I am doing affects things. If you get deep into the Dr Boz stuff, you will end up checking your blood glucose and blood ketones and checking the ratio between those numbers and then using that to guide whether you may want to try a more advanced technique to try to “stress your metabolism”. I find it kind of fun. But you definitely don’t have to start doing that right away, if you even decide to.

(Frank) #56

The ketone tester is only 30USD.
The thing I don’t know about is when to test.
When I was checking my BGL I always did it in the morning when I woke up.
It was always between 100 and 110.
Never higher.
A few times in the mid 90s.
Once I get rolling in this I will buy the ketone tester.
I just need to learn when to test.

#57

You can test your ketones in the morning when you test your glucose. I always do morning readings, and then sometimes will occasionally also do it at other times of the day just out of curiosity. Last year my morning glucose readings were usually around 100 or a little higher, but currently they are often in the 80s.

(Frank) #58

Thats what I’m looking for.
80 would be great…
The ketones are highest in the am?
Wow…
80s…
Thats great.
No type 2 for you…

(Doug) #59

:cowboy_hat_face: Oh heck yes! (Makes me want to run around outside shooting guns in the air.)

So to speak. :wink::smile::smirk:

(Frank) #60

lol…
I’m here in SE Georgia…
Thats a daily event down here…
Shoot away!
lol

#61

I wouldn’t say ketones are highest in the AM. They vary through the day and are usually a little higher for me at night, depending on what I’ve eaten and activity, etc. I just like having my morning fasting readings.

Yeah, hopefully no type 2 any time soon! After years of avoiding having a physical, I finally had one early last year and saw my A1C was at 6.3, only .2 away from type 2. I’ve been having blood work every quarter and last appointment it was 5.7, the low end of the prediabetes range. I am hoping/expecting that at this year’s physical it will finally be out of the prediabetes range. :crossed_fingers: