Judgement and Disappointment

(David Jackson) #1

It’s truly sad how much judgmental and outright disappointing some folks are in this forum. I get it; this is the internet. Folks are relatively anonymous and have weaponized that anonymity to feel superior.

But HERE?

Folks, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. If someone does it differently, and the results are pleasing to the individual, is it really for you to talk down to them, to the point where it’s often insulting? (Cue the “if they can’t handle criticism, that’s their fault” comments)

Keto is simple: Eliminate carbohydrates as much as possible. Some folks have a target of 50 grams or less, as recommended by the godfather. Others suggest a target of 20. And yet SOME will harangue anyone Who admits to ingesting ANY carbohydrates at all. This is not supportive. Nor is it conducive to a learning environment.

Regarding “cheat days”: Nobody needs to be corrected on diction here. And anyone dancing with the idea of a cheat day doesn’t need us to shame them about their inquiry. The use of the term “cheat day” already comes fully loaded with feelings (or anticipation) of guilt. Is jumping on the shame bandwagon helping any of you with your keto? Is this behavior helpful to the folk asking? Absolutely not, it’s more likely they’ll stop asking “stupid effing” questions altogether and decide this community isn’t worth the hassle.

Regarding water: we get it. You drink (X) quarts a day. Water is good. But here’s the thing, water is EVERYWHERE. if Sally likes sparkling water, there’s not a single soul here who benefits from the textual tirade about the dangers of carbonated beverages. If Sam enjoys clear diet sodas, instead, there’s no need to bully him about the potential hazards of sugar substitutes. If you ONLY drink water, that’s fine. Nobody is here to shame you. Also, there’s no trophy for it. And certainly, there’s no need to bully those who prefer something more flavorful.

On fats: I have a precious selection of fats that I use. This does not give me the right to harass ANYONE for using different fats or even oils. While we learn that certain fats are more harmful than others, for whichever reason, the bottom line is ‘Fat is Fat’. If yelling at a new dieter that their current oil is “Not Keto” actually helps your journey, your traveling the wrong path. Also, you’re wrong. Ketogenic diet teaches us how to get into and to stay in Ketosis. That is NOT defined by the nature of your cooking oil.

There are a great many dangers in this world. A great many things in this world are dark and scary. For some folks, leaning on others for information is terrifying. Berating them for asking a question that’s already been asked, or for choosing to consume something you would never consume, or any of a million other reasons folks tend to jump on the shame train will only lead to ugly group elitism, and exclusion.

Long story short, there’s an increasing amount of vitriol in this forum and it needs to go away. If I’ve offended you, don’t wait for an apology. If I’ve pissed you off with this topic, you’re probably one of the offenders, and could use some time for introspection. For the new kids, wondering if this is the right group for you… Hang tight. It’ll click for you soon, and you’ll learn how your keto works for you, and how it doesn’t.

#2

I’m in none of those categories. Not offended, not pissed off, and not new by my definition. I’ve asked questions and received helpful responses. We have some who are curt and straightforward and others who are supportive and validating. There are a lot of different personalities on these forums. In my personal experience, I’ve not experienced any of what you describe.

I find these forums to be the MOST SUPPORTIVE forums I’ve ever been a part of. I am often shocked at the amount of patience some people have for others, explaining the same thing over and over and over. And compassion and acceptance. I’ve never seen them elsewhere to the degree I’ve seen here. Even if 10% of replies were ornery, crass, or mean, it’d still be the most welcoming forums I’ve known.

#3

Keto/LCHF works great for me, and I haven’t seen nearly the amount of “increasing vitriol” you are writing of. In fact, I think there’s been decreasing animosities over the last couple years lolol… :thinking:

Just FYI - disagreement is not oppression, and critical thinking & resourcing is not harassment. Civil discourse is an actual thing though.

Though your screen name doesn’t ring a bell - you do sound sad, judgmental, and disappointed. Also a bit insecure - as you can’t possibly know how others actually feel, and judging others who share info or educate for informed choice as merely feeling superior would indicate that maybe you’ve been feeling inferior/superior for reasons quite your own?

There’s more than one way to help a cat though, and one can let two birds fly sometimes, especially with keto brainz. :joy:

There are indeed good fats and bad fats, and it behooves anyone to be informed of that fact. Whether due to fatty acid profile, or due to adulteration, solvents, toxins etc. Highly recommend checking out the recent film FAT : A Documentary which features many wise voices from the keto/LCHF world, such as key fat researcher Nina Teicholz (author of The Big Fat Surprise), Gary Taubes, Dave Feldman, Eric Westman MD, Dr. Georgia Ede etc. The history of the last 150 years of industrial culture’s fat sources and misinformation on fats is quite compelling and relevant to LCHF/keto education. It’s a major topic at Low Carb conferences too.

#4

I see that Paul is currently responding, so I’m sure he will be providing some very useful and thoughtful insights as to your thread here, but I did just want to say… I too agree with a lot that you say above, and for one, have never bashed anyone for doing something that works for them. If anything, I always back folks when they mention going ‘outside’ the “Keto” way, since I too believe Keto shows folks how to do certain things to help them, but is in no way, ‘only’ one way. (There is no “One size fits all” when it comes to Keto. … But I also don’t see that many folks doing as you’re making this site out to be.

Yes, there is the occasional outburst, and sometimes things can get heated, but overall… not very often when you look at this site as a whole. (Quite the opposite really) And if you are indeed seeing these types of things more than we are, I’m surprised you haven’t flagged some? Because if you had we would also be aware of them and would handle those things that we need to, and your activity level would also indicate these actions. … Again, I agree with most of what you said, except where you feel so many here are doing these types of things to new folks regularly?

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #5

Let me take advantage of the opportunity to suggest, to oldtimers and newbies alike, and in case it needs to be said, that if someone responds in an unfriendly, impolite, or generally inappropriate way to one of your posts, please do not engage with the poster, but instead flag the inappropriate post, which will bring it to the attention of the moderators, who will deal with it. Also, the way the Discourse software works, if a post receives enough flags from members, the system will deal with it automatically. So there is some incentive to avoid confrontation and let the system work.

Speaking now for myself, I have some thoughts about issues raised in the OP.

The issue of “cheating” is a tricky one, because many of the people asking if it’s okay to cheat sound a lot like newly-sober alcoholics asking if an occasional whiskey or vodka might not be okay. Pointing out the fact that someone sounds like an addict is not necessarily going to go over well. I sometimes try it, but no one ever appears to give any thought to my point, so I should probably stop even trying.

As far as fat goes, given the fact that the standard dietary guidelines recommend eating quantities of fats that are actually unhelpful to the body, while warning us against fats that are actually quite good for us, it seems appropriate to suggest that people stay away from polyunsaturated fatty acids (given how abundant they are in the American diet, no one needs to ever worry about getting enough—it’s avoiding getting too much that’s the challenge), and also to recommend healthy sources of saturated and monounsaturated fat. I believe this can be done without giving offense.

Likewise, since some people have problems with non-sugar sweeteners, it is appropriate to alert people to the possibility that they might encounter such a problem, so if they get stuck, they will know what the problem could potentially be. Again, this can be done in a kind way.

There are also known issues with dairy for certain people, and again, I don’t see a problem with alerting a newbie to be on the lookout for them, just in case.

But with all these issues, there are ways of presenting them that can be polite and informative, and there are ways of being offensive. Thank you for making that point, and I hope everyone will bear in mind the discussion of civil discourse in our Guidelines.

[Edited to add emphasis]

(Bob M) #6

As for fat types, seed oils are bad for you. But this isn’t something you realize right away. I was low carb/ keto for years before I realized this. And I just found out that the olives I bought all the time at the local store in plastic containers had seed oils in them. And I’ve been trying to get rid of seed oils for a long time.

As for cheat days, I’ve gone to cheat meals at times. But I’ve been doing this almost 6 years now. When someone not that long to keto asks about cheat meals, I have to caution that I tried that, and it did not work.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #7

Good points, Bob. One of the things that makes 12-Step programs work is that they strongly discourage telling people what to do, in favour of merely sharing one’s own experience, strength, and hope. We could do with some of that in other areas of life, as well. So thanks for sharing, Bob! :bacon::bacon::bacon:

#8

I feel it is fine for someone to get some feelings off their chest. I get it.

Your post didn’t bother me, I feel you needed to say it. Cool.

For me I was off typing in another post when after I came and saw your post and darn if I wasn’t kinda saying the same thing in a way…not ranting on differences on how we handle our journey and such…but I realized I am a different eater, Carnivore, than a Keto Plan eater. I realized I have to watch how I come across and know I need to be watchful definitely how my beliefs ram into others. So yea I get your drift…but I have to say from being on this forum it is super mild compared to some other ones out there, in fact I rate this one a fun place to be with super nice people. Yea we can ram a lot of our personal experiences at others but some science is just that, truth and one we can’t ignore but how this forum stays a ketosis forum is important. Do what one likes and requires for sure but a ketogenic forum is just that, like minded people wanting to be in and stay in ketosis and become keto adapted…so…I am glad you got your feelings out and hopefully things will improve for you on the site.

(David Jackson) #9

I should add that I’m not coming from a “victim” standpoint. I’m not the target of my observations. I don’t think one should be required to be the target of offense to make the observation.

Which is what my post was about. Observed behaviors. And while I do, for the most part, enjoy the forum, I have been less active the last few weeks. On purpose. Because of the caustic nature of many of the responses to this topic or that. And I’m glad I’m not the only one to notice. And yes, this forum is less toxic than Facebook or reddit. But I could say that in equal doses many poisons are less harmful than others. The fact remains is that even the less harmful poisons are still poison.

The whole point of my post was to reach out, create awareness in the hope that we could, as a community, be less poisonous and more supportive.

That’s all.

#10

I get that. Some things are bothering you on responses and you just wanted to point that out. But it truly tho is up to the poster who you think gets bombarded for whatever reason to react. We are not children here. Adults can stick up for themselves.

Any forum there is different ways of typing to get points across etc. and sometimes they come out harder than wanted, or some people are extremely direct etc. It is going to happen.

Awareness…cool. I absolutely get that. I hope some awareness happens :slight_smile:

(hottie turned hag) #11

Nor have I.
With one exception, a nasty tempered fella who caused even the kindest soul on here to post the ONLY critical post I’ve ever read from that person, and he vanished after being reported.

Hellyeah; Weird Uncle Dave @David_Stilley does this so well, as does @PaulL, I do not, I haven’t the patience.

(Susan) #12

I am in agreement with both of you lovely ladies. I have found it to happen only on rare occurrences and when it has, I think enough of us have reported the people.

I think that most of us try to encourage and give advice from our own personal experiences, and try to explain that that is what it is.

For sure @David_Stilley and @PaulL are both terrific at doing this, I totally agree =).

#13

Wow what a topic. Has the ketogenic forum frontier town reached that size? And entered into destabilisation. Makes me wonder, “Where’s the thorn?”

  • Cheat days (became word play); reviewed the Is it safe to have cheat days on keto? thread and couldn’t identify any vitriol. Some great posts there and some heartfelt ones. Learnt about abstainers and moderators. I saw you were there @DaveJackson, Turns out we are lucky enough to be moderators rather than abstainers. That was good stuff. Might have been looking for vitriol in the wrong place?

  • Water (everywhere) How do you drink your water?? Nup, no vitriol here. Possibly some tough love.But the conversation didn’t flow too deep.

  • Fats & Oils (a slippery topic)

  • Fat people at work - now that was/is a doozy of a thread. Plenty of gentle steps around the potentially explosive opinion. Great reading and thought inspiring.

  • Vitriol (nice word use, could be construed as a judgement)

  • Best not to mention “calories don’t matter”. That topic, like brown fat, creates some heat.

But it weren’t any of these, it was the way responses were read. or mis-read. i agree with disappointment. Disappointment in not yet finding vitriol unto which to feign, or profess indignation.

I enjoy coming on to the forum and being a bit challenging with posts and replies. And I know that I have been quickly told off when I overstep. Lots of different cultures here. Global aspects. People behave different depending upon societal norms.

I agree we need to be gentle with the inquiries of newbies as they are not yet armed with enough knowledge to summit Mt. Stupid in the Dunning-Kruger diagram.

But vigorous debate among the oldies and between different keto approaches results in deeper nutrition learning. The debating of minutiae and the latest wave of ketocarnivore keeps the topics feed flowing. It is a bit of a wild frontier this keto world. Full of characters and n=1 opinions.

I’d hate there to be a sheriff instead of gunfights. But since we are voting for peacekeepers, I vote for @SomeGuy Joey.

#14

There’s a Godfather?

(ANNE ) #15

Online forums, seem to me, to be a real time conversation.
We take turns, and over time the conversations of yesterday, month and year, well, they fade and become silenced by the new.
Newcomers to a conversation, start off by overhearing the conversation, then sit down to join it. They don’t know what older stuff has been said, they are in the here and now.
I think that is why we see such repeated questions, about “keto flu, carbs less than 20-50, ketostix, fat fast, water fast” and so on.
When online forums are viewed as a conversation (as I do), we don’t primarily think to research old conversations first to answer that question. I would not do that if I was in the room with you in person.
Hats off to the patience and kindness shown by the moderators of these forums. I do thank you, because I am guilty of asking newbie questions and the wise signpost the way to me.
My written word lacks the tone and emphasis of my spoken words. I think I may not be alone in this. The written word has never had such power as it currently has IMHO.
Thank you again to you all, who help me and countless others to eat well again.

(Joey) #16

@FrankoBear Uh-oh. It seems whenever I excuse myself to use the restroom, I get nominated for something while absent.

But thanks for the consideration :vulcan_salute:

(Bob M) #17

Dr. Phinney?

https://infinityketo.com/carbs-vs-net-carbs/

(Bob M) #18

To me, the vitriol is coming from carnivores. I see people on Twitter all the time who immediately have to apologize for eating vegetables. Are carnivores becoming the new vegans, ie, kinda crazy and always holier than thou? I think they might be.

(Nay) #19

I don’t think anyone need feel guilty of asking newbie questions. That’s how we learn :blush:

(Joey) #20

Discussing veganism may be red meat to carnivores? :cut_of_meat: (no offense intended to red meat)