I've been having a hard time the past couple of weeks

(Bunny) #21

I would eat that pizza as long as you have the discipline to follow your commitment to yourself?

Now days a pizza won’t even put a dent in me or my ketogenic lifestyle and I will eat a whole large pizza by myself. Nothing wrong with burning carbs here and their on occasions even once a week and it is way healthier to do so in my experience.

As long as you have the fortitude and discipline to keep on track and understand what foods are bad when you eat too much of the same thing constantly?

You cannot maintain a keto diet with
-out carb loading occasionally and that is the truth and secret to maintaining this type of eating and lifestyle.

The amylase enzymes in the saliva from the salivary glands (do not contain protease or lipase enzymes) were designed to digest carbs, mostly starches and fruits, problem is, we eat too much of the highly refined man-made-re-engineered processed foods (super high octane carbohydrate foods), which has basically caused a lot of carb hysteria unfortunately and the only way to repair the body is through this way of eating.

You ate extra carbs! Oooooooh how bad?

Black & White thinking is why we lose control and put the whole ketogenic diet on the back burner.

Switching back and forth with big gaps in time will just make it worse and not a wise thing (decision) to do, especially if want to burn body fat again and makes it more difficult each time?


For people who can handle a carby food every once in a while, I would highly recommend separating them from a meal that also contains fat unless you are trying to gain weight.

Except for all the people here who don’t carb load and are successful or are basically intolerant of carbs.


Focus on this. If you eat something that disagrees with you, some of those things will come back with a vengeance. I know I’ve done it and wow is it ever motivational to be reminded of how bad I used to feel.

(traci simpson) #24

Carb Loading? like a bunch of veggies, maybe some fruit? I can’t image loading up on all the crap that got me into this mess in the first place.

(Not a cow) #25

Are we talking pizzaria style, or grocery store frozen…thin crust plain, or full on meat lovers ? Can’t wait till fat adaption now !

I get what you are saying here !

(Gerald Young) #26

I started keto in August 2018. I had a similar problem in January. I did a review of what was available for a carnivore diet then switched over in February and never looked back. Almost four months and feeling great. I usually eat once a day. Total time for shopping, prep, eating and clean-up is less than an hour. Diet is rib-eye or chuck roast, supplemented with the occasional liver, eggs and cheese. If I happen to get hungry I know I haven’t eaten enough at mealtime, usually 6:00 pm. For a reference site try www.dietdoctor.com. I did a seven-day water-fast between the keto and carnivore switch-over. That was interesting - if you’re thinking of trying that, then drink plenty of water. Cheers. PS. Please see a doctor who understands ketosis if you are T2D.

(hottie turned hag) #27

Hm, @atomicspacebunny, I must beg to differ.
I like many of your posts, they often contain good data and you are great about linking to articles but this statement, especially made in such a blanket way, is objectionable and patently false as phrased.

I always try to include a disclaimer with my recommendations that covers individual variability; now I don’t doubt at all that carb cycling shall benefit some folks and some shall do awesomely with including it however for many -I wager, most- folks it may be detrimental. For some, very detrimental.

It would for me for sure; my tolerance for carbs is practically nil.

I won’t claim much knowledge of what the gurus Fung, Phinney et al not to mention our lay gurus on here would say to the scientific data for/against your statement as I haven’t read much of it, but what I infer from posts herein is that carb cycling is contraindicated.

(Empress of the Unexpected) #28

Also very confusing advice for newbies.

(hottie turned hag) #29

Hear, hear! Could easily mess folk up, badly.

(Bunny) #30

Nothing objectionable or patently false as phrased (and will phrase it as such in future posts) about eating what you want occasionally, that’s real world reality, sometimes you have to eat what is available or sometimes you may want to just eat what you want, and do not forget you have a built-up enough of a health reserve to withstand a higher carb intake occasionally, the longer you are on a ketogenic diet.

People with thyroid conditions may have to carb up occasionally if they nose dive into 20 grams a day without thinking about slowly easing into it over a period of weeks or may not even know they have a thyroid condition and wonder why they are not burning body fat i.e. losing weight?

(hottie turned hag) #31

@atomicspacebunny yes that’s where individual variability factors in.
No absolutes in medicine. All is -should be- case by case.

It’s only the blanket-ness of your statement that is troublesome.

(Bunny) #32

Sometimes the body tells you that you need to eat some carbs (that does not mean eat junk food) and that is because of one little digestive enzyme in the saliva (amylase) that reboots the leptin, ghrelin axis to kick start the body into fat burning mode.

The salivary gland does not produce lipase or protease, it only produces the amylase enzyme along with vitamin K, meaning who ever created us or however we came into being intended us to digest carbohydrates but not high octane junk food and without carbohydrates you will not burn body fat if anything is wrong with your internal organs or metabolism.

(hottie turned hag) #33

Hm again…with that detail I am now curious and wondering.

Though a data geek and with a master’s in an (esoteric) med sci field and 27 years experience in my field, I did little research into how/why keto works, in truth I didn’t know it was called “keto” (though knew of the ketogenic diet used to treat epileptics as my work often involves pedi pts with seizure disorders but certainly made no connection between that and my “eat no carbs, eat lots o’meat” gig) until two of my kids informed me that the carb elimination diet I’d been doing for weeks was now a trendy “thing” and called by a cute name :neutral_face:

(I’m a recluse who uses no social media, watches no news and avoids all popculture like it was a scary contagion).

All that to say, I’ve done next to no research on it since as I kept/keep it very very simple to avoid triggering my obsessive disorder so perhaps there’s more merit to carb cycling than I am aware of?


A good read:

The only viable interpretation of these data is that ketogenic diets markedly increase tissue sensitivity to T3, and thus serum T3 levels decline while the physiological response to T3 remains normal. In this scenario, both the thyroid and the liver have to do far less “work” to maintain a normal thyroid physiologic response. https://blog.virtahealth.com/does-your-thyroid-need-dietary-carbohydrates/

(Bunny) #35

You need insulin (insulin sensitivity) to make T3 and if not the gut microbiome will try to do it for you.

Increased tissue sensitivity is the interesting part which is probably part of the healing process on the ketogenic diet, T3 levels could be high because of receptor rejection blocked by estrogen molecules that get stuck inside the receptor on the thyroid gland because its shape resembles T3 which also effects the way the thyroid secretes its hormones.

(It's all about the bacon, baby) #36

I don’t believe so. To me, the justifications for carb cycling and for “resistant” starch sound scarily like the sorts of justifications addicts come up with to continue using their favorite poison. For that reason alone, I avoid intentional carb cycling, and I suffer no obvious ill effects. In fact, the ill effects I experience always seem to be the result of eating carbohydrate, not of abstaining from it.

I haven’t seen any convincing data that carbohydrate intake above 0 g/day is necessary. The body does need a certain amount of glucose, true, but the liver is perfectly capable of manufacturing the needed amount; carbohydrate is not necessary in the diet. Jeff Volek came out with a study recently that shows that athletes who have been fat-adapted for a sufficiently long time have glycogen levels comparable to those of sugar-adapted athletes. Granted, reaching this point after going keto takes some time, but I would suspect that carb-cycling would interfere with, not aid, the process. (I don’t believe Prof. Volek has studied that yet, but I’d certainly be interested in the results.)


Just to clarify, I believe you’re looking at the FASTER study? That looked at muscle glycogen, which was replenished well, but not at liver glycogen (no invasive liver tests). Depletion of liver glycogen is concurrent [that’s the word I was looking for] with the OAA shortage needed to create ketones. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049515003340

(It's all about the bacon, baby) #38

I don’t see liver glycogen as particularly relevant, in any case. The only issue I can see it affecting is glucose-replenishment speed, which I why I would suspect (interesting to find out if I’m right or not) that the liver maintains a certain store of glycogen as a cushion.

Evolutionarily speaking, however, it would appear that we evolved primarily for endurance, and that whatever limit there is on explosive performance persists because our ancestors had only a limited need for it. (In other words, a long chase followed by short-term explosive exertion at the kill.) If the race had regularly needed more explosive performance than that, surely we would have evolved to have it. Or died out, lol.


Adapted athletes skew the traditional glycolitic zones tremendously, but yes at zone 5 levels there can be a glitch.

Interesting theory, but I’m not coming up with a way for it to keep ketone-killing substrate out of the TCA.

(hottie turned hag) #40

@PaulL so in short, unsupported by current data. However, likely to work well in some individuals, allowing for my oft-alluded to individual biochem idiosyncrasies.

Re: evolution’s effect on today’s homo sapiens, I fear we have so distorted its natural progress in the past 150 years, via the sheer rapidity of artificial influence (many many examples, hormonal birth control/fertility tx, maintaining those who would formerly have been unable to survive to reproductive age, maintaining those with formerly early lethal diseases/disorders, environmental changes of a drastic sort, etc), versus the prior X amount of time during which such degree of change/interference was unprecedented, that today’s humans are too far beyond the reach of its past influence.

#runonsentenceaward :trophy: