Is There Such a Thing as an Oxalate Table?

(Central Florida Bob ) #1

Before I go buying books without looking in them, is there such a thing as a table that lists the oxalate amounts or concentration in various foods?

The only person I’ve seen mention this has been Sally Norton, but never anything like “X has twice the amount of oxalates as Y” or something quantitative like that. Nobody seems to say, like carbs, that if you get less than some amount you’re probably fine.

I’m interested in things like how foods might compare. Take almonds. I hear they’re high in oxalates, but I hear nothing about other nuts. It doesn’t matter if you cut out something and replace it with another just as bad - or worse - so how do almonds compare to cashews or pistachios? That kind of question.

I looked around the forums but didn’t find an example.

(Bob M) #2

This has multiple lists:

A lot is missing, though, such as chocolate bars.

This has a list with some nuts on it (PDF):

It would be nicer if someone just made a big table.

(Central Florida Bob ) #3

Thanks, Bob,

That Nutrition Advance Article is in a format that would be pretty easy to port into a spreadsheet and then sort in a variety of ways. The Kidney Dietician pdf would be a bit harder, but maybe a “rainy day” kind of project. Maybe with more input from the USDA food database.

What got me thinking about this was seeing a quote from Sally Norton saying something like, “I’d never drink tea” and I was just making myself give up my Coke Zero and switch over to iced tea. It still may be acceptable, since I have a glass of iced tea in the afternoon and a cup of brewed tea has 14 mg. A cup of cooked spinach has over 100 times that.

(Bob M) #4

I did see that spinach was way up there. I assume kale is too, but I didn’t see it on the list.

Yeah, I have 1-1/4 cups of coffee and 1 cup of tea every morning. Oh, and I’m trying to break a chocolate habit, but still have some every once in a while.

Personally, oxalates are one of those things I’m confused about. Not sure that I’ve ever had oxalate dumping for instance. Was eating chocolate pretty much every day for a while. (Combined it with dairy at the time, though, which adds calcium, which supposedly blunts the effect of oxalates.) Did I hurt myself? I don’t have any exterior way of knowing (nothing bad happened).

Most of my food is low oxalate, though, so maybe the stuff I’m eating/drinking means I’m still relatively low oxalate?

I also wonder if some people are more susceptible? Maybe I’m not as susceptible?

#5

The reality is that most, but not all, people have a microbiome that breaks down oxalates and renders them harmless. If you are missing the commensal bacteria, then yes, you can absorb oxalates from food and drive pathology, but they also contain dietary nitrite. Which, as we age, is important for cardiovascular health. A recent study (2023) shows over 700 strains are involved in degrading oxalates, principally Bifido bacteria and Lactobacillus. Work on your gut health.

(Edith) #6

If you join the “Trying Low Oxalates” Facebook forum, they have an amazing Excel Spreadsheet of all kinds of foods and drinks broken down by oxalate content.

(Central Florida Bob ) #7

Thanks, Edith, but I dropped my Facebook account several years ago. I know I can look at some things without an account because I’ve gotten links off other sites that worked, but I have no idea how I’d do that.

(Edith) #8

Yeah, with that group, you need to join to view their stuff. It might be worth getting a Facebook account just for them if you are having oxalate trouble. The group is moderated by Nutritionists and oxalate researchers. There are almost 68,000 members. They even have a carnivore subgroup.

(Bob M) #9

I hate to say this, but I’ve been thinking of getting a Facebook account. There’s an account with a ton of members for a group on low ferritin, which I can have. A lot of Maria Emmerich’s stuff is also through Facebook.

@ffskier Also, if you combine oxalates and calcium, the calcium can bind with the oxalates and reduce the amount you absorb.

I’m not really sure how to work on gut health. Back when I started, people were taking resistant starch (potato starch, mainly) and probiotics to attempt to affect their gut biome. So many problems with this, mainly testing. Say you take a probiotic and prebiotic (resistant starch). How do you know you affect your biome? You don’t really know.

So, I eat some fermented foods, which I tend to make myself. I eat some yogurt sometimes. But that’s about it.

I’ve tried many probiotics, but if they do anything, it’s really hard to tell.

#10

All valid points. The biggest problem with exogenous supplements (pills) is that they’re crap. When taking the pills, you have no idea what bacteria you are missing or are deficient in, and once taken, is it released into the body where it should be?. Over the last 3–4 years, I have read copious amounts of information on recolinizing the gut. From my point of view (no expert), in the beginning you want to increase Akkermansia and Bifidobactium. This is best done on an empty stomach with real food. Apple peels (3–4 apples) are one of the best sources for Akkermansia to feed on. After a week, add in blackberries, blueberries, and raspberries (1 cup total). Again, this is a compilation of studies I have read about re-colonizing the gut.
Real food is the key. The body generally knows where and when. Fermented foods can also be good, but not all the time. Too much can also be a problem. South Korea has a high consumption of fermented foods, but it also has one of the highest incidences of stomach cancer in the world.

I have a cousin who was lactose intolerant and, after 6 weeks, on a gut recolonizing protocol, can now consume dairy on a regular basis.

(B Creighton) #11

The cancer is also true of Japan. I have read that it is connected to all the soy products eaten - not fermented soy.

There is a probiotic bacterium, Oxalobacter formigenes, that specializes in consuming oxalates, but a lot of antibiotics will kill it off, and it is not a probiotic I have seen contained in general probiotic formulas. It has to be ordered specially.

(B Creighton) #12

I ran across one I liked not too long ago, but can’t find it now. However, just about any single food can be looked up on oxalate.org

(Bob M) #13

One of the few oxalate-containing foods I eat is chocolate, either as a bar or as chips:

image
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Bummer, it doesn’t list these.

I was hoping also to find a study that compared eating oxalates (say, chocolate) without dairy, then eating oxalates with dairy (say, yogurt) and listing what happens. I can’t find a study like this, though I could be missing the terms.

I did find a study on oxalates and probiotics by mistake:

https://advances.nutrition.org/article/s2161-8313(22)00588-9/fulltext

Edit. I’ve been running Llama 3 LLM (large language model) locally (on my computer, no internet access needed) through Ollama, via Windows powershell. Here’s my query and the response:

Do you know of any studies where they compared oxalate levels after eating oxalate-containing foods with or without
… dairy?
Yes, there are several studies that have investigated the effect of consuming oxalate-containing foods with or
without dairy on urinary oxalate levels. Here are a few examples:

  1. A 2014 study published in the Journal of Renal Nutrition found that when healthy adults consumed a meal
    containing high amounts of oxalic acid (such as spinach and beets), their urinary oxalate excretion increased
    significantly. However, when they drank milk along with the meal, their urinary oxalate excretion was reduced by
    about 40% compared to drinking water alone with the meal (1).
  2. Another study published in the Journal of Nutrition in 2017 looked at the effect of consuming a mixed meal
    containing spinach and cheese on urinary oxalate excretion in healthy adults. The results showed that urinary
    oxalate excretion was significantly higher when participants drank water with the meal compared to when they drank
    milk (2).
  3. A more recent study published in the Journal of Food Science in 2020 investigated the effect of consuming a
    meal containing high amounts of oxalic acid (such as rhubarb and Swiss chard) on urinary oxalate excretion in
    healthy adults. The results showed that urinary oxalate excretion was significantly higher when participants drank
    water with the meal compared to when they drank milk or a dairy-based beverage (3).

These studies suggest that consuming oxalate-containing foods with dairy products may help reduce urinary oxalate
excretion, possibly due to the binding of oxalic acid by calcium ions in milk. However, more research is needed to
fully understand the mechanisms behind this effect and its potential implications for individuals with kidney
stones or other conditions where high oxalate intake is a concern.

References:

  1. Sorensen MB, et al. (2014). Effects of oxalate-rich foods on urinary oxalate excretion in healthy adults:
    impact of dairy consumption. Journal of Renal Nutrition, 24(3), 152-158.
  2. Li F, et al. (2017). Effects of a mixed meal containing spinach and cheese on urinary oxalate excretion in
    healthy adults. Journal of Nutrition, 147(12), 2341-2348.
  3. Wang X, et al. (2020). Effects of oxalate-rich foods on urinary oxalate excretion in healthy adults: impact of
    dairy-based beverages. Journal of Food Science, 85(S2), S1417-S1424.

Please note that while these studies suggest a potential benefit from consuming dairy with oxalate-containing
foods, it’s essential to consult with a healthcare professional or registered dietitian for personalized nutrition
advice, especially if you have any underlying health conditions or concerns.

#14

Not connected to soy. If that were the case, then all Asian populations around the world who also eat lots of soy would have the same incident rates. This is not the case. More than likely, it’s a bacterium called H. pylori. This is the main known cause of stomach cancer (90%). Smoking rates are also higher. When talking about food, they generally do not eat citrus fruit. Most of the cooking, or, as I call it, buring of meat and fish, is done on exposed gas grills inside their homes, where the smoke is so thick you could cut it. My Korean neighbor was famous with the local fire department, which came about once a month. Sadly, he died at 57 of stomach cancer. He was also a heavy smoker.

(Central Florida Bob ) #15

[quote=“ctviggen, post:13, topic:121412”]
Please note that while these studies suggest a potential benefit from consuming dairy with oxalate-containing foods,
[/quote]… blah blah

Funny, I thought the studies showed the opposite. The AI is saying keeping oxalate levels higher, by not excreting them in the urine is a benefit.

Until about two weeks ago, I had never even seriously considered the possibility I had problems with oxalates, That’s when @VirginiaEdie posted a link to a video she had watched that talked about oxalate dumping and Afib.
https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/atrial-fibrillation-magnesium-ketogenic-eating-yoga-oxalates/36218/236

Then I went to that other thread and left a reply of my own.
https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/atrial-fibrillation-magnesium-ketogenic-eating-yoga-oxalates/36218/237?u=cflbob

My interest in oxalate levels in various foods comes from trying to determine what sort of oxalate intake I have, and if I’ve been oxalate dumping. That, in turn, leads to whether that mechanism she describes could be a reason why I’ve had more arrhythmia episodes as I’ve gotten closer to carnivore.

As carnivores go, I’m pretty bad at it. Once a week, we have what Mark Sisson calls, “a Big Ass Salad” for dinner, and sometimes one for lunch. We have things cooked in tomato sauces regularly, and keto ice cream nightly. I have either macadamia nuts or pistachios daily (say 1 to 1-1/4 ounce). It’s just that for maybe four days/week when we would have green stuff for no particular reason, we’ve been skipping it.

(Bob M) #16

Could be possible.

What I wondered was how your current oxalate level affects dumping. My understanding was that you don’t “dump” until you have a lot less oxalate coming in. Then, you dump what you’ve built up. But say you have a level of X oxalates, then you start eating Y oxalates, Y<X. Do you dump X-Y? Or do you not dump at all unless Y<<X?

By the way, this is one reason some people think Dr. Saladino didn’t do well with carnivore: he had built up a ton of oxalates, then started dumping them.

I just wish there was a pee stick that would tell you how many oxalates you were peeing out.

#17

I would think it’s the latter (at least for noticeable symptoms) but it’s possible it’s somewhat individual too? I don’t know. I only know I never had any oxalate dumping symptoms when I tried out carnivore. I never stuck to it for long but my eating changed very much even for my off days, I hardly eat much oxalate since.
But I avoided greens on my vegetarian keto, almonds are expensive and usually unnecessary, I preferred walnuts (in small amounts), yeah I ate chocolate every day before but little, it seems it was low enough…? I ate dairy every day, no idea if that helped.
As it wasn’t my problem and I am interested in so many other things, I never dug deep regarding oxalates.

But it stops eventually… No idea how long he did carnivore and how long bad oxalate dumping lasts but obviously not forever. (But I understand if he lost patience, I quit a new diet the first day it gets truly uncomfortable… Maybe earlier. I was really lucky with carnivore. Until I don’t get bored of meat or face temptation, it’s better than any other diet. My body definitely approves.)

(Edith) #18

Taking calcium citrate when one is dumping to supposed to help get the oxalate out of your body. The problem is that when the calcium binds with the oxalate, it takes it away from the bodily functions that need it.

Even if you are not eating a lot of oxalate now, you could have lots stored up in your body from over the years. Dumping can at the least be uncomfortable or even painful and at the most have serious health consequences.

On the Trying Low Oxalates Forum, particularly for people following carnivore, if the symptoms become too uncomfortable, they recommend ingesting something with oxalates such a drinking some black tea or eating some dark chocolate to slow down the dumping. So, if you are eating some oxalate containing foods you could be eating enough to prevent dumping or be dumping slowly, and then when you get really close to carnivore, you start dumping more.

The Trying Low Oxalate forum is worth your while to join. It is very interesting reading about other peoples experiences. They even have a document that lists all the different dumping symptoms people can have. It is quite extensive.

Edit: fixed a typo

(Edith) #19

It does. For some people it may be a few weeks or months, but for others it can take years. There are also people who produce their own oxalate in higher than normal levels. Those people, of course, have the most trouble.

(Central Florida Bob ) #20

and then

I’ll take a different perspective. Our bodies seem to be good at striving for an equilibrium, so my guess is that in the short term, it’s simply what you have minus what you need. If there’s no need for oxalic acid or oxalates, and I can find nobody saying they’re needed, they’re all eventually gotten rid of. It seems the reason some people have symptoms of dumping for a while is that our bodies aren’t very efficient at getting rid of it. So it starts out at Y<<X, goes through Y<X until both = 0.

A couple of searches turn up nobody advocating for more oxalic acid or the oxalate salts and saying we need them - although there are obviously tons of vegans and vegetarians saying to eat the foods that are the sources.