Is the “too much protein turns to sugar” a myth?

(bulkbiker) #81

Keto causing NAFLD? 10 servings of veg a day?
All a bit odd to me.

(Adam Kirby) #82

If protein behaved in the same way that glucose does then people wouldn’t have massive weight loss success on the carnivore diet, since it would amount to a high sugar+high fat diet, and that truly is the obesigenic combo. The difference is that protein raises glucagon as well as insulin, while carbohydrate only raises insulin.

The only negative effect I can think of protein is that is probably lessens ketosis (not stops it). But since level of ketosis is only relevant to people with neurological disorders, protein overconsumption should not be an issue for most people on keto.

(Adam Kirby) #83

I haven’t actually heard the 2KDs say this lately. They may have a long time ago. But enough compelling articles and talks from the likes of Amy Berger and Ben Bikman have made the rounds in the last year, I’m not hearing the “protein turns to sugar” fear as much these days. People give Jimmy Moore shit for this meme, and he may indeed have thought it back in the day, but who among us is all-knowing? This is a learning process for everyone, and just when you think you’ve zeroed in on insulin as a hormone of great importance, along comes glucagon and upsets your thinking!

edit: actually I gotta give Michael Eades credit, he was on to this whole insulin/glucagon thing a LONG time ago!

(Doug) #84

Good point right there, Adam. Glucagon is our major catabolic hormone, and acts directly opposite to insulin. The difference - as with Dr. Bikman’s presentation about the insulin/glucagon ratios - between insulin alone and both hormones is enormous.

(Bunny) #85

As Dr. Eric Berg pointed out …lack of insulin or lack thereof” “can cause NAFLD” according to the basic physiology books he is citing…” as a “WARNING video module” but that is not written in stone if sufficient choline intake is involved as pointed out by Dr. Darren Schmidt:

Where do we get choline and methionine? We get it from various veggies and organ meats (high in choline)?

Nothing “odd” about that?

(Allie) #86

@collaroygal I’m in the same camp

(Allie) #87

Regarding the high fat / protein experiments done by Jimmy Moore and John Limanski - in both experiments they both did something that is very strongly advised against in keto, they forced their dietary intakes of protein / fat with both admitting that they had to force themselves to eat more than they were comfortable with and more than their bodies wanted them to eat and that really doesn’t make the results they got relevant to people eating regular keto diets and listenening to their bodies.

If you’re basically force feeding yourself when you really don’t want to eat and are going against the signals your body is screaming at you, that is bound to have an effect on your health and it’s not likely to be a good one.

(Omar) #88

very interesting

(bulkbiker) #89

Sorry but Dr Schmidt says categorically that a Ketogenic diet cannot cause but in fact heals a fatty liver.
Dr Berg quotes from a book saying a lack of Insulin (i.e. Type 1 diabetes) can cause a fatty liver.
Maybe that is the case however a ketogenic diet does not cause a “lack” of insulin. A ketogenic diet makes the body more responsive toward the insulin that is produced it does not cause insulin production to cease.
So as I said he is both wrong and misleading.
The evidence contained within your own post.
I now hold Dr Berg in even lower esteem than I did before as he has shown himself to be rather ill informed.

(CharleyD) #90

If only there was a signal for too much sugar… none of us would be here!

(Bunny) #91

…as long as your absorbing (gut flora biome) the choline that you are eating from whatever source?

Without it what are the chances of creating a fatty liver?

Please tell this person that? (in the below referenced post)

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/newly-dx-insulin-resistant-fatty-liver-despite-3-yrs-keto-and-4mths-if-ef-wait-what/34946/9?u=atomicspacebunny

I would discuss that with the people who published the physiology book, that is probably in most medical schools, colleges and universities? I think the research discussed in the physiology book he is referencing was done on dogs way back when, I could be wrong?

…Ketogenic diet you are using IGF-1 (fasting/autophagy/ketosis) in place of insulin and glucagon (small portion of protein intake) not the same as sugar burner type insulin? As I understand it?

…More responsive to insulin because your not spiking it constantly perhaps?

(Stacy Blanchard) #92

I could not disagree more. Dr. Bikman did his PHD work in metabolism and is a teacher of medical students at a university. He is equal to or more than qualified to address this issue.

Dr. Bikman
The purpose of our lab is twofold. First, we aim to identify the molecular mechanisms that explain the increased risk of disease that accompanies weight gain, with particular emphasis on the etiology of insulin resistance and disrupted mitochondrial function. Second, we hope to reveal novel cellular processes that are responsible for fat development.

(Bunny) #93

Does he have patients?

(LeeAnn Brooks) #95

Well this makes everything clear as mud.:joy:

Actually, great conversation, but I don’t know if I’m any closer to an answer. Perhaps the preponderance of evidence will tilt the debate definitively towards one or the other, but right now I think there’s still too much unknown to know for sure.

Though after reading all your great responses, I’m leaning toward it being a myth.

Thank you all!

(TJ Borden) #96

At least it got @atomicspacebunny and @MarkGossage to duke it out. I love both of them and they’re both usually so laid back, it’s fun to see them get into it. Even @Stabla went in for a round.

As I’ve said before; this is a forum, not a choir. Challenging beliefs is healthy and something everybody here is clearly open to, otherwise none of us would be keto to begin with.

(Stacy Blanchard) #97

I deleted mine. I should not have said anything. I just hate qualifiers that really are meaningless. Now your post looks weird. Sorry

(TJ Borden) #98

:joy::joy::joy: my posts usually do.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #99

Bikman is subject to peer review and reproducibility. You really only have Berg’s word on Berg’s practice. No publications.

Atkins had the same problem. He funded Duke (Westman) and UCONN (Volek) to produce the studies.

I’m not saying Berg is a quack. I’m just saying a bunch of YouTube videos and a website could be made by anyone, real deal or well meaning self aggrandizing not a real doctor guy.

If you’re buying what he’s selling, maybe talk to Jimmy Moore about Kimkins. Faked a whole diet.

(TJ Borden) #100

Hmmm…:thinking:. So I just need to figure out a product to sell and get the guys to come out from YouTube to film me and I might be able to cash in on this keto money train

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #101

Guys from YouTube?

You just film yourself. And get some pictures from around the Internet. Maybe stock photos. Maybe mail order brides or Instagram. Befores and afters.

Seriously, this happened with Kimkins.