Insulin index for artificial sweeteners


#1

Is there a document, image, chart, graph, case study, or diagram which shows the insulin index for various artificial sweeteners? I’ve looked and looked but all I’ve found are rat studies and anecdotes. I keep seeing that Ace-K causes an insulin spike (which I totall believe) but where is the science? Everyone is different, I get that but seriously is there no real science being done in this area or am I just terrible at searching for answers. Thanks in advance.

The reason I originally asked this question is I’ve shifted towards slightly higher protein and lower fat recently but most protein powders have Ace-K. Since protein spikes insulin some anyway does this really matter? After all insulin is required to shuttle amino acids into cells along with glucose right? So does a little additional insulin spike from the sweetener just help that process?


#2

Don’t forget the cephalic response the body has to seeing/smelling/thinking about eating sweet foods where the pancreas can create insulin just from thinking we are going to need it


(KFdriscoll%) #3

Check this web page to see if gives you the information.


(Karen) #4

I like monk fruit drops

https://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/monk-fruit-vs-stevia#disadvantages-of-monk-fruit

K


(Randy) #5

Whey protein can cause massive insulin spikes.


(Madge Boldt) #6

I don’t know of an insulin index. Would be lovely if one existed!
Ketoconnect did a video where they tested their blood sugar after ingesting artificial sweeteners. Call it an N=2 experiment! Here is a nice rundown of their results plus an infographic that includes glycemic index. Best sugar substitute for keto?


(Karen) #7

Helpful

Also interesting

Hmmm

K


#8

This is a myth. Check out the fat burning man podcast episode #15 with Dr. Bikman. He addresses this idea specifically. Turns out it’s not true. The idea of limiting protein intake in general on keto is under fire. Dr Naiman for example will tell you there is really no such thing as too much protein. Definitely, 2-3 grams per pound of lean mass is within tolerance. I increased my intake of protein and I feel like a new man.


(Norman Bates) #9

In this video there are a few sugar and ketones in blood tests with sweeteners.


#10

That doesnt seem right to me.If you weight 200 pounds at 10% bodyfat,then 3g od protein per pound of lean body mass will be 540g of protein.

Without steroids I dont expect more than 120g being used as building block for human body,the rest will be converted to glucose.That will be like 420 grams of glucose a day,does not seem very keto.

Also,I think many people tend to over estimate how much protein we need.For 200 pound 10% man,its more like 60g being sedentary and not recovering from weightlifting,and 120g after good deadlift session.


#11

Protein being converted to glucose is a myth, one you’re perpetuating. Read this:


(Auden) #12

Thanks! I’ve been looking for a list like that


(Robert C) #13

The author Amy Berger writes in one of the replies to her blog post the text below. I think it says that eating high amounts of whey might or might not give a person a high glucose reading. Saying things are facts or myths views the body as a deterministic machine. If I eat a lot of whey and my glucose goes up and I am not willing to go burn that off in an intense workout (perhaps seeking strength gains) then I am probably making a mistake. On the other hand, if I eat a lot of whey and my glucose and insulin are unaffected - I am probably fine grabbing that extra protein to ensure I have at least met my daily target.

"I've read that dairy proteins can be more insulinogenic -- whey, specifically, is known to induce a higher insulin response, and I think this is part of why it seems to be so effective for building muscle mass. (I've had success with this in the past, myself.) But the fact is, people vary a great deal in their insulin and glucose responses to different foods. Two people can eat exactly the same food in the same amount and have very different glucose and insulin levels."


#14

Insulin is required to shuttle amino acids from proteins into cells. Your body’s natural response is to produce insulin upon consumption of protein for this very reason. As a result your body will raise blood sugar slightly to keep the elevated insulin from crashing blood glucose levels.

Have you watched any of the lectures by Benjamin Bikman? In a low carb person high levels of protein intake have virtually no effect on glucagon to insulin ratios.

I said that the idea the body converts protein to glucose is a myth. Because it is a myth. One that has been perpetuated in the keto world for far too long.


(Robert C) #15

I think you could very well be right - that whey, added to a human’s metabolism, does not transmute itself chemically to glucose. I am not trying to prove or disprove that. I am just saying that there are two kinds of people:

  1. People that read that whey is good for them and start having whey shakes before or after their workouts but are actually doing bad things to their metabolism so get fatter (and don’t know the problem is the whey).
  2. People that read that whey is good for them and start having whey shakes before or after their workouts and start to make accelerated muscle gains.
    (Well, maybe 3 kinds - maybe for some it does absolutely nothing.)

The point is, proving it is a myth in the keto world shouldn’t let people make that logical jump to “oh, not converted to glucose - must be okay”. They should jump to “oh, not converted to glucose - still might or might not be okay”.

I’ll take a look at the lectures (YouTube I assume) - might be a bit of a deep dive for me though.


#16

Point well taken, just because something is keto does not necessarily mean it represents a net benefit on a ketogenic diet. PUFA’s come to mind as do some supplements like EK.

I have never seen or heard of science backing the idea that a person can get fatter by consuming more protein. You can get fatter from eating excess carbs, you can get fatter from eating excess fat, but the same rules don’t seem to apply to protein. Protein is actually a terrible fuel source so eating a LCLF protein rich diet will cause accelerated body fat loss due to the thermogenic effects of protein. To learn more on this topic take a look at “rabbit starvation”.

I was never saying that supplementing whey protein is “good”, I was originally countering a falsehood regarding the body’s response to whey intake. Protein powders (and there are many types) can be a tool to get some quick protein when overall calorie restriction is the goal. Powders can also add convenience. Should they take the place of whole food sources? Nope, but they can used in conjunction with a well balanced diet to tweak macros, achieve satiety, etc.


(Robert C) #17

I wonder about your statement “just because something is keto” – is that really correct in the amounts you are discussing? Whey protein (very heavily processed so definitely not Paleo) might be keto to some people and not others – especially depending on amount. If you are in ketosis and a whey shake knocks you out of ketosis – is whey keto? 3 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass for a person that has lean body mass of 150 pounds means they can have 450 grams of protein – or 1800 calories from several whey shakes throughout the day? Add that to almost no carbs plus fat to satiety and (yes, I do not have the science) I really think you will not be in ketosis. But – let’s say you still are in ketosis. Only a whey salesman would want you to put that kind of protein load on your system. It seems most keto thinking is along the lines of %fat-%protein-%carbs being 80-15-5 or 75-20-5 (or about 75 to 100 grams of protein) with the majority of calories coming from clean burning high quality fat.


#18

There’s a lot here to address but let me take a crack at it.

I’m actually much more interested in the idea of low carb and not so much keto. I think you’ll start seeing more and more people moving this direction as more science comes out. Again, I’ll refer you to Dr. Bikman. This is a must watch. Dr. Ted Naiman is a great resource also.

Since being in ketosis doen’t really matter unless you are trying to achieve therapeutic ketone levels for something like epilepsy I’m not sure it matters. The term “knocked out of ketosis” or “kicked out of ketosis” needs to die a slow painful death. There are many experts in the keto community who have been saying this for a long time and they are right. Have you read this?

Are you familiar with the protein leverage hypothesis? The idea that true satiety comes from eating enough protein? Are you aware that science has proven many times over the last 5 decades that protein is the MOST satiating macro (followed by carbs and lastly fat). For the most part I don’t think the 75/20/5 macros idea is too far off…for maintenance or therapeutic ketone levels. I do think that those macro ratios are off the mark for weight loss. I think for anyone wanting to lose weight (assuming elevated fasting insulin levels aren’t preventing lipolysis) striving for 50% of calories from protein with very low carbs is the key. A protein shake could be used to get macros on track but whole food sources are what you really want: lean cuts, egg whites, minimal added fat, etc.


(Robert C) #19

Your reply has a lot to address too but I’ll stick with one statement:

"Are you aware that science has proven many times over the last 5 decades that protein is the MOST satiating macro (followed by carbs and lastly fat)."

No, I was not aware of that.
And, it is definitely not my experience.
3 eggs, 3 strips of thick cut bacon, 3 oz. of cream cheese and some Cayenne pepper infused oil - to taste (bake the bacon, heat the oil in a pan, scramble the eggs in the pan, cut up the bacon and add to the scrambled eggs, add the bacon fat rendered while baking, add the cold cream cheese diced on top, remove from heat and cover the pan for 3 minutes - stir if desired and enjoy).
That meal - if in the morning, will get me to dinnertime without a bit of hunger - if at lunchtime, gets me to dinnertime and I have no trouble with a smaller dinner.
An equivalent calorie whey shake just doesn’t do it for me - 2 or 3 hours max.
(I used to have them regularly years ago when I was trying to strength train and read body building magazines.)

Finally, have you considered that supplement companies will pay and pay and pay for proof that their powders are best in every way - totally necessary, totally satiating, unlimited use is OKAY etc.?

Fat was so shamed since the 1970’s that until recently (hmmm…5 decades later) - almost no one would try to say fat had any benefit (Dr. Atkins did and got hell for it, Tim Noakes was taken to court). But, given the forum we’re in, I bet there are a few members around that would vouch for fat over protein at this point.


#20

Loved the video. Thank you

I was wondering about something. I read on here recently that glucose impact is not the same as insulin impact. That sometimes a BG drop below baseline (in the absence of major exercise) indicates that it stimulates insulin. One recommendation (in another post on here I think, not sure where or who said it) was to do what Megha and Matt did but that a drop in BG below baseline indicated an insulin response even if there was no BG spike. If ketones remain stable not sure how that ties in, anyone know?

Based on the video I would wonder about every sugar that caused a drop such as stevia, allulose and aspartame