Insulin index for artificial sweeteners

[Rian]

And, it is definitely not my experience.

Did you have time to check out any of the resources I cited? Because I feel like your throwing a lot of “seat of the pants” science my way. You keep referring back to whey protein when the scope follow this conversation is supposed to be much more.

[RobC]

Well - actually the scope should be about an insulin index for artificial sweeteners, but we got off course.
I have had time to look through most of them but still only have “seat of the pants” n=1 things to write (like I feel full on keto and never did on high protein, I feel like “I got kicked out of ketosis” when I have pizza and beer and my blood ketone meter reading is super low etc.).
Obviously, these kinds of statements don’t work in a “show me the science” thread.

Dr. Benjamin Bikman’s video is great!
But he recommended 1 to 2 grams per kilogram of lean body mass and you previously wrote “2-3 grams per pound of lean mass is within tolerance”.
A person with 150 pounds of lean body mass has 68 kilograms of lean body mass.
Bikman’s recommendation is 68 to 136 grams of protein.
It seems Bikman’s less than 50 grams of carbs, 38 to 136 grams of protein and the rest fat suggestion is not far from what is generally accepted a decent keto macro ratios.
Your limits (or maybe you were quoting Dr. Naiman) are 300 to 450 grams of protein for the same person.
That struck me as odd (that maybe almost all of your calories in a day could be protein) so I pushed the point.

But yes, I did not push with science - just with my own observations (which was inappropriate).
Sorry about that - I’ll keep personal observations out of this section (and sorry Ketogenic “Show me the Science” Forum participants).

[Kelly_Lord]

Awesome discussion. Went from lurker to forum member because of this thread. Anyway on to my thoughts. I don’t think studies can determine satiety as far as macros. Take three people, an athlete, a diabetic, and a 20 year strict keto eater and I guarantee all three have different perspectives on what satisfies their hunger pangs.

Saying ketosis isn’t necessarily the goal and it’s about low carb is relative to your goals. Ketosis has benefits low carb non ketosis may not like reducing inflammation, cognitive benefits, and unparalleled mitochondria related energy.

Protein to glucose isn’t a myth. It’s a scientific fact. It’s how the few glucose dependant body processes function in a ketogenic state BUT I agree with you saying there is a possibility excess protein may not be converted to glucose. Its about caloric intake vs expenditure. We know some excess protein is excreted through the urine. Unless someone is on anabolic steroids though I can’t imagine anyone being able to use 3 grams of protein for every pound of body weight. So for those that want to be in ketosis there seems to be nothing gained by doing that.

The main benefit of excess protein is a positive nitrogen balance for anabolism. Excess calories from excess protein would be good for protein synthesis but too much would go through the protein to glucose conversion and and then glucose to fat storage depending on the caloric surplus.

Lastly arguing if the bulk of your calories should be from protein on a ketogenic diet is kind of a contradiction. A ketogenic diet is a high fat diet. It isn’t defined solely by low carbs so you couldn’t replace fat with protein as your main macro and be on a ketogenic diet by definition. Your advocating a high protein low carb diet which may be beneficial for certain goals but isn’t keto.

[Rian]

Awesome discussion. Went from lurker to forum member because of this thread.

This has been a fun discussion, thanks for chiming in.

I don’t think studies can determine satiety as far as macros.

Actually they can, and have. But I see your point about individual differences. I can never get so full that I couldn’t eat another fat bomb or another bite of cake, but I can get to where one more bite of chicken breast is an awful thought. Another way to think about it would be to ask what is bringing about the hunger in the first place? The need for energy or for protein, or for both? Because aside from a few grams of EFA a fat adapted, overweight person with access to their own body fat already has most of the energy they need.

Here’s my other point on satiety. Many people can and do gain weight on keto. But if they tell us they are eating to satiety which is subjective and which we have to believe then what gives? Is the satiety concept flawed in some people? Or is there a flaw in the idea of fat to satiety? If those same people were eating protein to satiety would they begin losing weight? Because I submit that they would.

Saying ketosis isn’t necessarily the goal and it’s about low carb is relative to your goals. Ketosis has benefits low carb non ketosis may not like reducing inflammation, cognitive benefits, and unparalleled mitochondria related energy.

We agree on this, I touched on this briefly but I should have been more clear.

Excess calories from excess protein would be good for protein synthesis but too much would go through the protein to glucose conversion and and then glucose to fat storage depending on the caloric surplus.

This is false. Are you familiar with rabbit starvation? If you eat a diet very high in protein yet low in carbs and fat you will lose body fat quite rapidly up until the point where you die. Which is why I’m interested in the concept of PSMF for weight loss. Once you reach your ideal weight then by all means go high fat keto. But to reach that point I’m suggesting we rethink some of the conventional wisdom.

A ketogenic diet is a high fat diet.

Wouldn’t consuming a diet which results in the burning of 1,400 calories worth of your own body fat per day still be considered “high fat”? Because if weight loss is the goal I would think this would be considered the best kind of high fat. Metabolizing butter is cool and all but I have weight to lose so I’ll leave the butter burning to the folks in the “maintain” stage like Phinney.

[Sari_C3]

I think one key point missed here is that insulin spike and glucose spike are not the same thing. While generally proportional, certain foods have been food to cause an insulin spike without the related glucose increase.

The insulin index of foods is different from the glycemic load.

[Rian]

So if a food can spike insulin significantly without increasing available glucose then what mechanism in the body stops rapid and severe hypoglycemia?

[Ilana_Rose]

@Rian Glucagon.

[amwassil]

@Rian Excellent point about rabbit starvation!

[Rian]

So what you’re saying is non-nutritive sweeteners can spike insulin and to combat the drop in blood glucose the pancreas will release glucagon to counter that effect by signaling the liver to release glycogen? And what happens after that glycogen is gone? Gluconeogenesis? What if gluconeogenesis can’t keep up with the demand for glucose? Death by diet coke?

We as humans can use fake sweeteners to rapidly deplete the liver of glycogen and enter a fasted state in 1-2 hours vs 18-24 hours?

[Ilana_Rose]

So if a food can spike insulin significantly without increasing available glucose then what mechanism in the body stops rapid and severe hypoglycemia?

You asked this question and my immediate thought was that protein spikes insulin without spiking blood glucose and the reason it doesn’t result in hypoglycemia is because there is also a glucagon response.

We know that non nutritive sweetners spike insulin. I don’t think the mechanism is worked out however. One thing that seems pretty clear from the experiments that show this is that what you are actually getting is a multiplicative effect of the sweetener on the insulin response to actual calories.

So it’s the taking of sweeteners with other calories that leads to a much higher insulin response then those same calories alone would have produced. This isn’t problematic in the way that you described above since everyone has an individual insulin response to a food bolus depending on metabolic disfunction and insulin resistance. Basically, the sweeteners are making you more insulin resistant when you use them and so your body churns out more.

Another interesting fact about sweeteners is that it’s been experimentally shown that people consuming them don’t eat fewer calories than people eating sugar sweetened foods when allowed to eat ad libitum. They just end up eating way more.

[Knnn]

Sorry for being dumb, and I’m not sure if I missed something critical that was posted above, however, I get the impression that the general consensus is that non-nutritive sweeteners can spike insulin?

Is that correct?

Does anyone have any links to the science that demonstrates this?

Is this the case for all artificial sweeteners?

Is the degree of insulin spike the same or variable?

Does the sweetener bio-availability, absorption rate or mobility across the gut lining have any impact?

[Keto6468]

Sorry just hear that this article does not include Splenda zero drops. Splenda zero is not bound with dextrose, as it is straight sucraloae liquid. Additionally there’s nothing on allulose. Anyway I think most people agree that if it’s possible to drop sweeteners it’s probably a good idea

[Keto6468]

Many artificial sweeteners do not spike glucose. Although you can test them on yourself. Many of them are also carbohydrate free. But…Because everyone is very individual it’s probably a good idea to check them on yourself. A Ketone and glucose meter is not very expensive.