Insulin DOESN'T make you fat? Really?

(Leanne Scott) #1

Hi all! I’d love to hear feedback on this :

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/07/22/biochemistry-insulin-doesnt-make-fat/

(Kristin Rogers) #2

It must be true, it says “PhD” right in the URL

(Crow T. Robot) #3

TL;DR – Yes, insulin promotes fat storage, but it can’t make you fat if you’re still in an energy deficit. OK. agreed.

Interesting podcast. I’ll probably listen to it again when I can pay closer attention to the details.

#4

High insulin combined with low energy intake sounds like a nightmare to me, if you’re somewhere on the IR spectrum. It’s basically the diet the ADA recommends. You can’t get enough energy from your food or your fat cells. Plus, the insulin is blocking fat usage in your muscles and you have to rely on a steady supply of glucose from food. Again, this is the 5-meals-a-day trap that never lets you get off the couch. Then they just tell you to eat less and exercise more.

OTOH, if you don’t have high insulin, then eating something that stimulates insulin will only give you problems in conjunction with excess energy. Once you fast overnight, the fat cells will do their job and that energy will be accessible again.

Plus, no model of insulin action is complete without taking into account the incretins secreted by the gut and brain function, which has a lot to do with how much energy you consume.

(Solomom A) #5

How is energy deficit measured? Over a day, for a particular meal or say a month? My understanding has been in the Insulin Resistant, a high insulin plus excess blood glucose will lead to fat storage irrespective calories. May be I should lookup a study. For the same calories, high insulin stores fat whilst low insulin allows breakdown of stored fat.

(Solomom A) #6

Dr. Fung discusses the issue here: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-causes-weight-gain-hormonal-obesity-iv/ where people got fat despite eating less but taking more insulin. He cites other studies. This topic is the old CICO being cast in another mold, not going to die anytime soon.

(Barbara Greenwood) #7

One mechanism I’ve seen described goes like this: take in carbs, BG and insulin rise, but because of insulin resistance, glucose doesn’t get into muscle cells as much as it should. Hormonal signals at the cellular level signal lack of energy, which we experience as hunger.

It’s not so much that people gain weight while in caloric deficit with high insulin, more that the high insulin results in them feeling constantly hungry, so they take in more than they need. To put it another way - a proportion of what they take is preferentially shunted to fat storage before the body has a chance to utilise it… so they have to take in extra to provide enough for their body’s needs.

The equivalent to this in T1’s is that, if they accidentally take more insulin than they need, they go hypo and have to to consume carbs to correct it. No-one would tell a T1 they shouldn’t consume carbs to prevent the discomfort and danger of a hypo. But they will implicitly tell a T2 (or obese not-yet-diabetic insulin resistant person) that they shouldn’t eat to avoid the discomfort of ‘internal starvation’ at the cellular level.

(Crow T. Robot) #8

Absolutely! And I think this might be the disconnect: he is only approaching the problem from the standpoint of a healthy metabolism. Extremely high insulin (esp. chronically high) simply has to put a wrench in the system, and this is borne out in T2 diabetics who are given insulin and put on fat without eating more.

I asked him when he announced this podcast would be coming out if he was taking the metabolically disregulated into account and he didn’t reply.

#9

I know I’ve heard him say before that keto was a no-brainer for diabetics, but I can’t figure out which podcast it was. But then he also says that once you’re “cured” you can just go back to carbs again. So, I have to disagree about who could actually do that and how long it would take. I’ll look for quotes…

[I love and respect many low-carbers and low-carb researchers, and think low-carb diets are very appropriate and perhaps necessary for many people. https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2010/11/18/is-insulin-resistance-really-making-us/ ]

(Crow T. Robot) #10

Yeah, that’s not going to work. Even in the LCHF community it’s pretty widely accepted that “reversed” diabetes is not “cured” diabetes. OTOH, Atkins held that you could start introducing some carbs back into your diet, but only until you found the point at which you started regaining and that was your limit – a far more practical approach IMO.

(Nick) #11

Dr Masterjohn has become peculiarly and uncharacteristically cussed these days.

He has some interesting new sponsors…

(Crow T. Robot) #12

I was wondering if I was the only one thinking that. I was thinking he seemed to be trying to distance himself from the LCHF community, possibly since he was widely seen as an ally if not an actual LC proponent. Who are the sponsors?

(Chris) #13

BRB, I need more vegan dust in a bottle.

#14

Yes! I find that on days when I eat cheese (very insulinogenic), I get munchy and eat more overall that day.

(Doug) #15

[quote=“Chris_W, post:12, topic:16298”]
Who are the sponsors?[/quote]

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(Leanne Scott) #16

Dr.Fung really spells out the effects of caloric restriction on health with or without IR. Masterjohns background is academia, research and pursuit of entrepreneurship vs actual clinical work and I can’t help but wonder about how this contributes to what he publishes which is often Carb-centric.

I started wondering about this after this podcast and blog which he states :

“Did you know that adding MCT oil to your pasta is more ketogenic than restricting your carbohydrates to ten percent of calories?”

Hmm really? Anyone game to test this theory?? :grin:

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/07/28/ketogenesis-isnt-all-about-carbs-and-insulin/

#17

Unfortunately, he gives a controversial title to something that turns out to be not what it appears on the surface. There’s good info in all of his stuff, just depends on what conclusions you want to draw from it. If, for example, your goal is to have marginal ketone levels for a short period of time, and still eat a plate of pasta, then you can do that (why?). If your goal is to induce nutritional ketosis, then not so much. 10% of calories would be ~200, which would be 50g. That’s a borderline level, depending on what type of carbs and your glycemic and insulin response.

(Jason Fletcher) #18

I have been trying to find out the reason for the insulin response in cheese or if there is. Most say this is a problem food for them. My thought has always been that it is very calorie dense and easy to over eat beyond satiation. i know in soft cheeses there is more lactose this i can see being a problem but cheeses like cheddar I don’t see it. I looked up the insulin response of cheese and I found this chart here https://public.tableau.com/profile/publish/foodinsulinindexanalysis/insulinloadvsFII#!/publish-confirm
It does not look like there is that great of a response even in cream cheese and this has a greater number of carbs then harder cheeses so carbs could add up. I did find something about casein protein being broken down to casomorphins this can cause a dopamine response in the brain and drive you to eat more. This may be more of a explanation if the science is right.

#19

I understand that it’s the milk proteins, not the carbs, that cause an issue.
Here’s one article about it:

I know that the issue is far from settled, though. I’ve been kind of experimenting, and most cheeses seem to cause a weight plateau or even gain for me, but not cream or butter, even when consumed in large quantities.

(Nick) #20

In dairy, it seems clear that it’s the whey and casein that is insulinogenic, followed by the lactose. This is why double cream, for example, which is largely just dairy fat and water, is one of the lowest items on the insulin index - unlike cheese or milk.