Induction using fasting

(Crow T. Robot) #26

This.

Actually, that’s why I only rarely peruse r/keto anymore: too much focus on calories there. I actually found them pretty friendly.

#29

I wouldn’t complicate the induction process since eating at a planned deficit could interfere with satiety signals which would make it harder.

(Larry Lustig) #30

That is certainly my feeling. In fact, you really never want your body in an energy deficit. After you’re fat adapted, however, you’ll hey much of that energy from body fat. At that point the food you eat will be less than the food you burn… But on either end (getting fat adapted and after reaching your final body size) you’ll want to match your energy intake to your metabolic need.

(Kathy L) #31

It’s so hard to not think about CICO -but weight loss is about HORMONES -not calories. Insulin stores fat -we need to reduce insulin -by limiting carbs.

(Genevieve Biggs) #32

Trust the process. Keto works. :sunglasses:

(Ann) #33

Welcome John.

(eat more) #35

it gets easier…my app lists net carbs, fat, protein, calories…i notice that i don’t even look at calories now…not even out of curiosity
i know the number is there and i just don’t see it lol

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #36
(Alexandria) #37

Very helpful. Thanks you for this post. Was also unsure about what deficit I should push for. Have been trying for 30% but it’s just not practical, I’m still craving fat at the end of my day and struggling to keep calories that low and still be satiated

(eat more) #38

do a forum search on CICO
have you listened to these podcasts?
the threads and podcasts are super helpful :slight_smile:

(Alexandria) #39

Thanks so much for your reply, I really appreciate it. I’ve listened to the metabolic rate podcast but not the former. I will check that out. I have my numbers on CICO but I’m just reading so many conflicting things out there. Some people say it’s best to consume at least 200g of fat consistently to become adapted…others say you you still have to watch your CICO or you don’t give yourself time to burn stored fat, as it’s burning what processing daily. I am considering going on a 1 day fast, a 3 day fast, then 1 week. I haven’t gained any weight with all my calorie consumption but I haven’t lost any either. Ketones are spilling over in my urine but don’t seem to be used by the body yet ( I’m getting my blood Keto testing meter this week). Do you think it’s generally okay to fast while in ketosis (on bone broth) if I’m not adapted? I’m also interested in how my Keto experience differs as a woman, fat loss vs body composition. I’m purging on as many posts as I can get through.

Hugs and Love.

Thanks so much again for letting me on to the first podcast. Will listen now.

(eat more) #40

i wouldn’t get hung up on any numbers…200g seems like an arbitrary/cookie cutter number like “1200 calories for women”
everyone is diff and has individual non carb targets and fat loss/recomposition.
it does seem that it takes women longer to become fat adapted…but honestly it took me even longer because my initial keto intake was far too low.

i wouldn’t recommend fasting prior to fat adaptation.
it can be a challenging endeavor even being fat adapted and without feeding your body from exiting fat stores it could translate the fast as starvation and reduce your BMR

i’d ignore numbers and deficits for now.
eat when hungry… and revisit macros and fasting once fat adapted :blush:

#41

Yes, it’s generally okay and generally unlikely to cause any problems, but the advice is normally to wait until after being fat-adapted because fasting is usually something that most people hate, and it’s easier after the body has easier access to body fat.

However, given that this is in a thread that’s around the idea of using fasting to accelerate the induction of getting fat-adapted, my answer would be that fasting would definitely get there faster and it’s what’s been classically done to get epileptics into ketosis faster.

(Alexandria) #42

Thank you so much for your reply. I had read another response of yours on the same topic just moments ago. Research seems to debunk the starvation mode theory in regards to fasting but I won’t know for myself until I give it a try. I was afraid that I’d constitute to stall. I have gained 2.5 pounds over the last two weeks and have been following what I know to be a decent ratio of fat:carb:protein (80% fat/5% Carb/ 15% Protein) religiously, getting most of my fats from avocados, mct oil, quality meats and a few macadamia nuts. I may cut my protein to 10%. I’ve omitted dairy for the time being as I was told by my gym trainer that I need dairy in order to be successful at Keto. I haven’t seen the science behind that theory so I haven’t adhered to his advice. Any thoughts @BillJay TIA

#43

As others have said, the scale isn’t particularly accurate when taken in isolation from measurements because of variability from water changes and even the volume of stool, and it’s better to consider it in conjunction with measurements of chest, waist and hips at a minimum and more, like arms and thighs, if inclined. This especially true for people who are exercising since they may be adding muscle.

2.5 lbs of “muscle” sounds like a lot for 2 weeks and it would be IF it was pure skeletal muscle, but it’s possible that among an possible fluid retention could be the rebuilding of other lean mass if you were chronically under-eating and after going keto, the body’s ramping up hormones and replacing/rebuilding the tissue that it under-prioritized due to the deficit.

As far as needing dairy to be successful at keto, I’ve heard just the opposite. Many people who are failing at keto with dairy, turnaround their issues and start doing better; this is often at least in part due to dairy causing inflammation in their system, especially the gastrointestinal tract resulting in “leaky gut”.

Although I don’t think it’s a bad idea to test reducing your protein consumption, fat-storage is predominantly driven by insulin levels.

Yes, carbs are most insulinogenic, with protein being about 50% weaker, while fats barely registering, but other obvious factors just as metabolic syndrome (pre-diabetes) will keep insulin high, there’s also the less reported effect of insufficient sleep causing insulin resistance all by itself. I’ve heard reports from various podcasts and most recently from Robb Wolf in Wired To Eat where he’s discussing Doc Parsely and how just a few very poor nights sleep can cause insulin resistance to rival T2DM.

http://www.docparsley.com/

It’s still early on the keto journey and in lieu of a fasting insulin level to prove that you’re not insulin resistant, it’s most likely that you are and that’s what’s causing the weight gain for now.

Remember, the early stages of keto-adaptation are not about CICO and calorie deficits, it’s about reducing insulin and normalizing hormones so the body will preferentially burn fat for energy instead of storing it.

KCKO! :smile:

(Alexandria) #44

I had considered this, so had an InBody test done yesterday. I am more concerned with body composition than scale. Per my inbody test, my BMR is 1217kcal. My Keto calf says I need to be at 1150 for weight loss. I have been going far beyond that in calories…1700 to 2000 (80% fat). I have been trying to eat until a comfortable satiety- not stuffed, but also afraid that if I continue and I am insulin/leptin resistant I will just continue to gain. What I have noticed is what you have described and I believe it is fluid retention. I have been consuming an excessive amount of sodium with meals along with the daily mag supplements to avoid carb withdrawal. I’m sure my sodium intake is not helping. I just started again at the gym yesterday in hopes that I could trick my body into flipping the switch, silly me, I did not fare well…dizziness…fatigue…nausea…ick. I also haven’t considered my lack of sleep in influencing resistance/tolerance.
Thank you for your thoughts on dairy- I feel less inflamed without it and will stay the course as that is concerned. I’m diving more into the topics of insulin and leptin resistance and it’s clearing up lots for me. I really appreciate your advice. I will trust the process and Keto on.

Al

(David) #45

You could try takimg your focus away from calories.

(David) #46

I would kick the exercise for now, and focus on the food. I lost 7Kg and went down two belt notches on no extra exercise at all. I’m feeling like I want to move more now. Again, I would not focus on calories as a metric to track to get things to work.

#47

@Barbell2Bombshell, you seem a lot more focused than most and definitely not practicing “lazy” keto - not that the term is derogatory to those that are, just that you’re much more active and proactive, especially since you’re interested in fasting to accelerate the induction into ketosis. :smile:

InBody seems to be using a more sophisticated form of Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis (BIA) than used by many of the home scales like the FitBit Aria (which I use). Do you feel like your results accurately reflect your current body composition?

Of course, DEXA is the “gold-standard” in body composition, but it is more expensive, so I’m just adding it to the thread for anyone considering more precise body composition methods.

Great! InBody and the traditional scale are just two among many tools, but are you measuring at least the basic body dimensions? You don’t have to report the results here, but especially given that you’re training, you could be seeing changes from the exercise.

[quote=“Barbell2Bombshell, post:44, topic:8408”]Per my inbody test, my BMR is 1217kcal. My Keto calf says I need to be at 1150 for weight loss. I have been going far beyond that in calories…1700 to 2000 (80% fat). I have been trying to eat until a comfortable satiety- not stuffed, but also afraid that if I continue and I am insulin/leptin resistant I will just continue to gain.
[/quote]

I understand the focus on calories, especially in the context of gaining weight in the first 2 weeks, so if you’re really not hungry, you’re probably getting adequate satiety signals and you’re okay, so the focus might be to maintain that while trying to get it into fewer meals so you can maximize the non-eating windows where insulin is allowed drop and hopefully allow HGH to rise. But if you are hungry, especially after a workout, please consider eating more.

I think @mikki would agree, especially after “lifting heavy”. :laughing:

Edit: Adding a link to another post in a stalling thread from a big proponent of using a tape measure. :wink:

(eat more) #48

i definitely backed off on working out once i started keto. I had that piece of the puzzle down and needed to concentrate on getting keto dialed in. now i work out when my body tells me to…and don’t when it tells me not to.

once going keto i found that i was less hungry during and after my workouts…like it could be hours after my workout before i eat. (which goes against the standard “eat within your anabolic window” lol)

InBody…i would not put any huge faith in the output or recommendations.
the calorie recommendations/BMR are based on standard CICO, it doesn’t take TDEE into consideration, and LBM/bf% can be skewed because it really doesn’t accurately test actual body fat. (it can report your body fat as higher or lower depending on many factors…hydration being one of them)
do any of the trainers at your gym know how to use a caliper? i’d ask them to do a caliper reading and compare the results with the InBody…at least sort of get an idea of what your bodyfat might be (not that calipers are super accurate either…human error factor, but i trust them more LOL)

I’d stick with a keto calculator that has an activity identifier. I like the KetoDiet App calculator

i’d go with the maintenance targets in the beginning (but don’t eat “to meet” the targets if you aren’t hungry)…your body will eventually sort out what it needs.