Induction using fasting

#1

Changed. Post edited.

#2

Welcome.

#3

Absolutely, that’s how the medical ketogenic diet has been induced for epileptics for a long time.

The only reason it’s not one of the first recommendations is that fasting is too extreme for most people and it’s not required.

Good luck!

#6

Part of the keto-adaptation process requires that liver glycogen stores are depleted to the point that ketogenesis is required to feed the brain while keeping carbs below your threshold and in these forums the general advice is below 20 carbs per day since that seems to work for everyone.

Without fasting, reducing liver glycogen is still part of the adaptation, it just takes longer.

Most people will only need a 24 hour fast to reduce liver glycogen, but if you can test for ketones all the better since there is food, especially fat stored in the gastrointestinal track, and even though someone isn’t eating for 24 hours, there’s still food being digested that may be supplying enough calories to prevent glycogen depletion within that timeframe.

(Genevieve Biggs) #7

Ditch the deficit. :wink: Especially if you’re fasting, no need to strictly count calories.

#9

Welcome!

(Jules Swart) #10

No shame in loving a good spreadsheet…

(Beth) #12

Well I thought I’d jump in here being new to the forum myself. I’ve been eating keto for about 2 months but I don’t think I’m “adapted” yet. After I got my ketonix several weeks ago, it showed that I still was not in ketosis. So I went on a fast for 72 hours. I think it took a day or so to start registering ketosis once I was fasting. Something I did this past weekend must have kicked me out because I’m now two days into a quest to get back into ketosis. So I’ve decided to fast again. I’m 24 hours into it and still not registering on the ketonix. I’m hoping morning will bring me some green flashes!

(Larry Lustig) #13

Fasting would probably speed up the process a bit if you’re able to stick to it. But if you fast, then eat a lot, especially if you overindulge in carbs or protein, it would be counter-productive. Personally, the idea of going 24 hours without food when I had not gotten control of my carbohydrate addiction was out of the question.

But even if you do fast, expect full fat adaption to take a while. It’s not like “one fast and that’s it”.

(eat more) #14

what i experienced with r/keto is that it’s 98% about CICO, they recommend far too great a deficit, it’s strictly about scale weight versus health, and a lot comes across as eating disordered (in my opinion)
you won’t find any of that here :blush:

i think 30% is too great of a deficit prior to fat-adaptation but that’s me

welcome John :hugs:

(David K) #17

Yep, that is the reason I ditched r/Keto. I will still read it on occasion but I really just look at the NSV’s and progress pics.

(eat more) #18

no sir :blush:
i still track all macronutrients (but not everyone does)

what i meant was that the focus and general culture of this forum is very different than what i saw at r/keto.

i think the focus here is science, long term health/success, and very supportive.
i think the focus there is moving the scale now at all costs without regard to the negative physical, mental, and emotional impact…and i’ve never seen anyone here call anyone stupid…directly or indirectly.

i think that 30% deficit is too great prior to being fat-adapted…especially if you don’t have a lot of fat to begin with…
once you’re fat-adapted and using your own bodyfat to “supplement” your intake it might be ok but before that you may be sacrificing lean mass and doing mental/emotional harm…and actually hindering fat-adaptation/loss.

there you’ll see “keto is all about calorie reduction…the less you eat the more the scale moves” (which isn’t true and disordered thinking)
here you’ll see that it’s about what’s really going on inside and the science to explain it.

a lot of ppl here turned to this way of eating to correct or manage health issues and fat loss is just a byproduct of their improved health and some are here explicitly for fat loss and improved health is a byproduct…they’re both win-win situations :blush:

i wouldn’t try and shortcut fat-adaptation…it takes as long as it takes…there’s a lot of correction, healing, and balancing going on between undertaking keto and true fat-adaption.

i would forget 90% of what you “learned” and witnessed at r/keto…i have :joy:

i’d redo your macros at no more than a 20% deficit.
do not set activity level to sedentary unless you actually ARE sedentary and read, read, read…there is a lot of information here and ask questions when you have them :blush:
KCKO (keep calm and keto on)

#19

[quote=“baconrun, post:16, topic:8408”]
I guess this is what I was really asking. From everything I’ve read, the rate at which our cells adapt to using ketones varies wildly.[/quote]

For brevity I kept my original response short and an initial fast is about induction and getting into ketosis, but real fat-adaptation will take much longer - typically as little as 2 weeks to maybe 2 months, but according to Dr. Jeff Volek and Dr. Stephen Phinney, there’s an even deeper level of adaptation that takes place up to a year later that seems to be related to the transition of the muscles shifting more away from ketones, preserving them for the brain, and using fatty acids.

Correct, I wouldn’t recommend any regular fasting intervals until someone is fat-adapted and even then it should occur naturally such as mentioned by Jimmy Moore when he recounts how he just noticed that had “accidentally” not eaten anything in a long period of time.

#20

Spread sheets are great… just don’t worry too much about the calorie column. It’s carbs and protein that you want to worry about.

(Leslie) #21

Welcome! Hi whazzup? Greetings from the States! (Mid- Atlantic). Hope your Keto journey is treating you well thus far!

Cheers.

(Michelle) #22

Welcome to the forum!!! this place is great.

(Patti) #23

I’ve sent the support team an email, but based on their self test the meter seems to be working fine. That leaves me in not in ketonis, So now what do I do. Here’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve been on keto diet 6 weeks and lost 16lb. I start my day with a 20 oz bulletproof coffee. That takes me to dinner or a snack about 3pm. I’m not counting carb but only get then though vegetables. After dinner snack 2 bacon and cream cheese. Oh I’ve lost several inch around the middle too. But on the humorous side last night I had a dream about eating a maple bar I actually had it in my mouth and I looked around and felt guilty and took it out when I woke up this morning I checked the pillow to make sure it really didn’t happen WOW this is crazy.:roll_eyes: I’m feeling great but I’m thinking if I were in ketonis I’d be losing more. Thanks again for your help!

(Patti) #24

Sorry I thought this was a reply to my earlier post

(Crow T. Robot) #25

I think it’s personal preference, but I would agree: start keto first and dial that in and then introduce fasting. However, I know plenty of people on r/fasting who never do keto but fast for days just fine and I believe they have become fat-adapted and probably generated some new mitochondria simply by fasting.

(Crow T. Robot) #26

This.

Actually, that’s why I only rarely peruse r/keto anymore: too much focus on calories there. I actually found them pretty friendly.