Increasing carbs once fat adapted

(Butter Withaspoon) #30

I find my carb tolerance by trying individual foods. If I can’t feel any difference, then that food item is probably ok occasionally.
Sometimes I wake up in the morning with a very slight feeling, like having 5% of a hangover, and remember that I had dinner at someone else’s house and it was a bit carbier, a bit more processed food. My response is to have a super healthy low carb day and that resets me.

What I avoid like the plague is treat food and sweet food. Those keto treats that look like snack food are not gonna be good for me. One piece of sweet junk food and I’ll be having the occasional treat for days after (because I REALLY felt like it!!). Starchy vegetables and fruit I seem to have a great tolerance for :woman_shrugging: I think I have a pretty high level of metabolic flexibility and can switch between fuel sources pretty well.

20g of carbs is such an excellent safe upper level for a society of metabolically unhealthy people, but it’s worth remembering that one person’s 20g limit may be the same as another persons 80g limit in the glucose challenge to the system. It would be like telling me I would be fine to drive after 1 glass of wine (because most people would be) - I would absolutely NOT be fine!

(Sam) #31

Yeah. I have had almost an opposite experience. When i used my cgm, i had fairly negative responses (higher blood sugar responses)to berries and certain vegetables (like garlic). But if i have some enlightened ice cream or quest pb cups… Almost no response and feel great. I get that bio individuality plays a role here.

(Sam) #32

Ok so i have been tracking this for about 6 weeks now. Most mornings ~11am, pre workout, my fasting ketones are 0.3-0.4 (by blood testing). It is really hard for me to get above that. Later in the day it might rise to 0.5-0.6 (as i am usually doing 14-18 hr fasts daily).

I did do a 48 hr fast a few weeks ago, and my ketone levels got up to about 1.8, and stayed elevated above 1 for an additional 24 hrs post the fast, but then dropped back down to the 0.3-0.4 range shortly thereafter.

I am still keeping my carbs between 20-30 a day.

(Bob M) #33

That mirrors my results, though my ketones are even lower.

Personally, I think that’s the body’s way of adapting over time. I BELIEVE (though do not know) that this means the body can directly access (more) FFAs (free-fatty acids), relying less on ketones for fuel. Therefore, the body does not create that high of ketones. And, I assume fasting causes higher ketones because there are probably only so much rate at which one can use FFAs. Though I think this, too, changes over time. I used to get really high ketone levels on a fast, but now, no so much.

Has anyone done research into higher carb (at least temporarily/infrequently) to change leptin? That could be one possible benefit to having at least some high carb eating.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #34

This is certainly true of muscles; I don’t know about other tissues (my understanding is that adipocytes can always metabolise fatty acids; they don’t need to adapt). Adaptative glucose-sparing (also known as “physiological insulin resistance”) is also ketone-sparing. I believe it’s one of the reasons circulating ketones drop after fat-adaptation.

(Bob M) #35

You know, I don’t know enough about FFAs. They seem to be out there, but never discussed much. I just did a search for “heart ffas as fuel” and got some interesting results.

I know Dave Feldman discusses them, but not much.

It’s also interesting because his theory is that muscular people (typically, men) would have lower LDL for reasons he outlines here:

I saw Shawn Baker post cholesterol and ketones, and, similar to myself, he has low values of both. While I’m nowhere near Shawn’s muscle mass, I was a pseudo-body builder at one time and have always had low cholesterol. I originally thought that was primary due to a Pritikin diet, but I never thought about muscle mass and lifting.

Anyway, I do think that falling ketones are part of fat adaptation, but even in my case, I had much higher ketones at one time. They’re quite low now. I was just wondering why.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #36

Fatty acids don’t circulate in the bloodstream, because they are not water-soluble. The glycerol backbone of a triglyceride is hydrophilic, however, and so triglycerides are packed into lipoproteins in such a manner as to shield the hydrophobic fatty acids from the water of the bloodstream. Since triglycerides are too bulky to pass through the walls of adipocytes, they have to be lipolysed into their components, the fatty acids and the glycerol have to then be absorbed by the fat cell, and then they are reassembled for storage. The reason insulin promotes fat accumulation is that elevated serum insulin inhibits hormone-sensitive lipase, thus preventing the triglycerides inside the adipocyte from being lipolysed and escaping. (A lot of this was worked out by Berson and Yalow after they devised their radioassay for detecting insulin.)

#37

I am tracking ketosis with breath acetone. I read that this is a good indicator of how much fat is actually being burned, because ketones that are flowing in the bloodstream can be exogenous and not from burning fat.


I have been experimenting with different foods, checking with the acetone meter and also monitoring glucose levels with fingerpricks. I had some extreme high values on the acetone, like off the chart (99 ppm, where you should keep below 40), it freaked me out. Not diabetic, but still, ketoacidocis was right around tge corner ! But according to a/m article it was not bad at all, my glucose was low enough to be in the ‘metabolic heaven’ area… it is all so confusing for a newbie. Just trying to find my way in the keto world, but don’t want to ruin my health. I am aiming for max 30 grams of net carbs now and doing my best to meet the 119 grams fat limit. It leaves me 62 grams of proteine. The last days I have been between 15 and 25 ppm, which is considered ideal. I also feel better than when it was too high. I am still wondering how I can keep in that feelgood range without overdoing carbs. Sometimes I have difficulties reaching all the limits which has me too low on calories (Not hungry enough), this might be a theory to look at. Currently loving the experiments and looking forward to find out more so I can cruise through keto with less testing someday. :nerd_face:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38

Lots of us here have purchased and used (at least for a while) various acetone breath meters and discussed our experiences and experiments. So welcome to the club. Of course, the manufacturers of breath meters want to convince you that measuring acetone is the ‘Holy Grail’ and lots of us would like to think it is. However, reality intrudes…

In the following discussion please refer to the diagram below.

Acetoacetate is the fundamental ketone. It’s the energy molecule. Whenever ketones are utilized they are utilized/oxidized as acetoacetate. The big problem is that acetoacetate is not stable so whatever acetoacetate is not utilized/oxidized within a very short time - minutes? - does one of two things: it either (1) spontaneously breaks down into a molecule of acetone and a molecule of CO2 or (2) spontaneously transforms into a molecule of β-hydroxybutyrate which is its stable form and which can last for hours. For this discussion we’ll address the issue of what acetone indicates about one’s ‘state of ketosis’.

First, let’s put a myth to rest. Acetone is not a good indicator how much ketones and/or fat your metabolism is burning. Look at the diagram: acetone is a product of acetoacetate breakdown not oxidation. Yes, there is a relationship between the amount of acetone and the amount of acetoacetate but it tells us nothing about how much acetoacetate is oxidized and nothing about how much fatty acids are being oxidized. Only some acetoacetate breaks down into acetone and CO2 while most converts into β-hydroxybutyrate. We have no way to measure how much of each process occurs and measuring acetone in exhaled breath tells us nothing about it. A breath meter only tells us how much acetone got exhaled. We can deduce from that how much acetoacetate disintegrated uselessly into acetone. But we can deduce nothing about how much acetoacetate was oxidized or converted into β-hydroxybutyrate.

So what can breath acetone (BRACE) tell us for sure? Not much. For example, if you blow a high ppm of BRACE does that mean you’ve got ‘high ketones’? Not necessarily. It might indicate you just exhaled a lot of useless acetoacetate waste and utilized very little. It might also indicate you’ve consumed ethanol and not necessarily just from drinking it, generated isopropanol, or consumed some other food that broke down into one or the other or both.

If you blow a low ppm of BRACE does that mean you’ve got ‘low ketones’. Not necessarily. It might indicate that most of the acetoacetate either got used fairly quickly or converted into β-hydroxybutyrate before it had time to break down.

So what I’m getting at is this. Have fun with your breathalyzer, record and graph your data, look for repeating patterns and try to match with eating, sleeping, exercise, etc. But don’t get too excited by all of it. You’re measuring a moving target and seeing momentary points that don’t really indicate all that much that matters. Things are a lot more complicated.

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(Mame) #39

I finally got to read this thread! Just the kind of discussion I like :smile:

I love how everyone pointed out it really is an individual thing and I believe it is!
I want to add that we don’t stay the same over time. Our bodies are on a journey.

What I can do now with a HOMA-IR <1 for the past year is different from what I could do 3 years ago. (I don’t track my carbs or ketones anymore, but I always pay attention to what I am eating, when I am eating and how I feel after. My main goal is to eat only for physical hunger most of the time)
10+ years ago when low carb for years I could eat a spoonful of rice and I was fine, right now my body and rice hate each other.
I can eat gluten until the cows come home (seitan) with no ill effects.
I used to fast for days and felt great. Now if I go over 20 or so hours I feel ■■■■■■ so I eat.
I can eat part of a grain free brownie sweetened with honey and I am fine the next day.
The volume of food I need is so small I emphasize nutrient dense foods that I like most days.

But sometimes I eat 12 fries with my fish and I am fine the next day. Does my habit brain want to keep eating fries daily? yeah but that’s ok. my reasoning brain does not.

I don’t assume things will stay the same over time in my body. I am getting older, my hormones will be changing, my stress levels change… I just pivot and experiment as needed and do my best to be my own best friend.

For me it’s about a transformed relationship with food mentally. If I want to try something I put on my virtual lab coat and go for it!

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #40

This is interesting. A study of continuous acetone, β-hydroxybutyrate and glucose monitoring in 30 T1D patients and 5 healthy controls. What I found interesting is the correlation between acetone and β-hydroxybutyrate levels in the healthy controls. Note: I was unable to link directly to the study because it’s posted in a download directory that automagically downloads the file without option to view only. So I copied it to one of my servers.

@ctviggen You may be interested in looking at some of the numbers in this study.
@PaulL for your attention.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #41

The hypothesis we sought out to test

A keto-adapted subject (who may already benefit from some Delta G arbitrage) will, under fixed work load, require less oxygen when ingesting exogenous ketones than when not.

The “experiment”

  • A keto-adapted subject (me) completed two 20-minute test rides at approximately 60% of VO2 max on a load generator (CompuTrainer); such a device allows one to “fix” the work requirement by fixing the power demand to pedal the bike
  • This fixed load was chosen to be 180 watts which resulted in approximately 3 L/min of VO2—minute ventilation of oxygen (this was an aerobic effort at a power output of approximately 60% of functional threshold power, FTP, which also corresponded to a minute ventilation of approximately 60% of VO2 max)
  • Test set #1 —done under conditions of mild nutritional ketosis, while still fasted
  • Test set #2 —60 minutes following ingestion of 15.6 g BHB mineral salt to produce instant “artificial ketosis,” which took place immediately following Test set #1
  • Measurements taken included whole blood glucose and BHB (every 5 minutes); VO2 and VCO2 (every 15 seconds); HR (continuous); RQ is calculated as the ratio of VO2 and VCO2. In the video of this post I explain what VO2, VCO2, and RQ tell us about energy expenditure and substrate use—very quickly, RQ typically varies between about 0.7 and 1.0—the closer RQ is to 0.7, the more fat is being oxidized; the reverse is true as RQ approaches 1.0

This is an interesting comment following the table of his results for test #1 while in mild nutritional ketosis alone.

Glucose and BHB went down slightly throughout the effort and RQ fell, implying a high rate of fat oxidation. We can calculate fat oxidation from these data. Energy expenditure (EE), in kcal/min, can be derived from the VO2 and VCO2 data and the Weir equation. For this effort, EE was 14.66 kcal/min; RQ gives us a good representation of how much of the energy used during the exercise bout was derived from FFA vs. glucose—in this case about 87% FFA and 13% glucose. So fat oxidation was approximately 12.7 kcal/min or 1.41 g/min. It’s worth pointing out that “traditional” sports physiology preaches that fat oxidation peaks in a well-trained athlete at about 1 g/min. Clearly this is context limited (i.e., only true, if true at all , in athletes on high carb diets with high RQ). I’ve done several tests on myself to see how high I could push fat oxidation rate. So far my max is about 1.6 g/min. This suggests to me that very elite athletes (which I am not) who are highly fat adapted could approach 2 g/min of fat oxidation. Jeff Volek has done testing on elites and by personal communication he has recorded levels at 1.81 g/min. A very close friend of mine is contemplating a run at the 24 hour world record (cycling). I think it’s likely we’ll be able to get him to 2 g/min of fat oxidation on the correct diet.

An interesting read. Keep in mind, we’re talking about a ‘fat/keto adapted’ individual, not just some guy eating SAD and popping exo ketones.

(Pete A) #42

Back when I started “keto” the first 3 months in my mind I was determined to stay on Atkins induction forever. I hadn’t really heard about Keto. After having twice in previous years lost a good bit of weight on Atkins, when starting those rungs… led to overeating and weight gain.

So yeh 4 years later weight still down, and still doing Atkins induction.

Oh, we call that Keto now? :slight_smile:

#43

Hey @Pete_A
Atkins original 1972 Induction plan was the only place I flourished all thru my low carb journey. In fact, when I hit Atkins Induction from the old version I never ever wanted my cup of salad or my pickle LOL I wanted more meat and more seafood in my life…so that Atkins original induction phase is what MADE me carnivore actually. It was my ‘safe point’ to become awesome and always win vs. every time I tried to climb any ‘carb ladder’ I failed so…I hear ya :slight_smile:

starting the carb ladder and going up those rungs was my downfall actually also…when I learned I had to be an abstainer vs. one ‘who could moderate’ and find a critical carb limit and I had no critical carb limit, mine was like 10g total carbs for the day from my condiments like a tad of low sugar ketchup on a burger or a tad of cocktail sauce with my shrimp…if I even pretended I could go higher, and OH DARN I tried many times :wink: I failed and back to induction and all animal and I thrived again.

I love love love original 1972 Atkins Induction, love reading the old original version of the book and oh yes I read it many times for sure…is it keto now? Nope…it is Atkins Induction plan LOL

key being ‘Keto Plan’ became a plan yet a ‘ketogenic diet’ is out there just as Dr A prescribes thru induction so I think so much of the ‘ketogenic burning body’ can be SO confused by 'following ‘The Keto Plan’ as it goes down :crazy_face:

beauty of that plan was eat ONLY from this list and he gave everyone ‘a cup of salad’ and some limited other stuff like a pickle but Dr A never gave you alot of options ever on that plan…that plan IS ITS’ own beauty ya know :sunny:

3 cheers for Dr A----the original ol’ timey version, not the junkier version they got today…now it is BUY atkins bars and drinks, Dr A sure wasn’t about that ever…so profit and greed screwed Atkins Plan but if you go back, way back to 1972 version and follow that, oh yes we learn so much it is crazy…crazy good :slight_smile:

#44

Great post.

my journey was to find my sweet spot…and darn if that wasn’t the hardest and longest journey to achieve — of course while meandering thru all the ‘insane dieting baggage and ol’ timey nutritional’ crap info out there but if one wants it bad enough, they learn a ton thru their journey and their mini experiments and what works for them…enjoyed reading how well it is working for you :sunny:

(Pete A) #45

Exactly.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #46

@Chocolatezilla

This appears to be the (or one of the) studies that breathalyzer makers - Ketonix specifically - use to justify their claims about BrAce correlating with overall ketone concentrations and ‘fat burning’.


An interesting study, to be sure. But the unknowns remain: we can’t measure the ratio of acetone to acetoacetate accurately and nor the utilization of acetoacetate/β-hydroxybutyrate compared to how much eventually gets wasted as acetone. What we do know is that generally more acetone means more acetoacetate which in turn means more β-hydroxybutyrate. But we can’t put hard/fast numbers on them. At least I have yet to find a way to do so. Although the study I linked above here is very suggestive.

#47

Despite crushing the acetone myth, I want to thank you for the elaborate explanation, Michael !
I am still way at the bottom of the keto learning curve, and appreciate everyone’s efforts to help the newbies. I am just so eager to find out as much as my brain can handle about keto, and I feel I have found a good place to at least get some honest feedback.
Glad to be part of the breathalizer club ! :slight_smile:

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #48

Despite limitations, I still utilize my Ketonix simply because it’s a non-invasive measure of something. I continue to search for info to help determine just what that something is and how relevant it is to understanding ketosis and fat adaptation. It’s too bad we don’t yet have a ketone equivalent of a continuous glucose monitor that can track all three in the blood.

#49

Thanks @amwassil ! Will definitely have a look at your links as soon as I have the chance. Meanwhile I’ll just keep tracking and enjoying the experiments :grin: