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(L. Amber O'Hearn) #101

I agree that Mutzel was probably just having an off day. It sounded so much like what you said that I thought you were inspired by it!

While I agree that to meet RDAs the carnivorous diet would need to consist of more than just steak, the RDAs are not really applicable as they stand, and we’re in uncharted territory. A couple of reasons:

  1. They were established in high carb diets, and high carb diets drastically change some aspects of metabolism. Vitamins are coenzymes for metabolic processes, so on a ketogenic diet we have different requirements, and it’s currently an unknown.
  2. Plants actively interfere with nutrient absorption, so RDAs are almost certainly inflated by an unknown amount.

I don’t think it’s reasonable to assert that we know what does or does not constitute a well formulated carnivorous diet. That’s still an empirical question. While I tend to conservatism (believe it or not!), and relish organs, fatty fish, and shellfish myself, I can’t dismiss the reports of carnivores such as Joe and Charlene who have been eating essentially only steak for some 20 years and not only are in excellent health, but claim to feel better than when they did include organs. If you consider the fact that humans were motivated to waste nothing, an argument can be made that nose-to-tail was just what we did because it was food. It’s quite possible that now that a person could afford to eat only fatty steak, that’s even better, and the organs were a concession.

Like the proverbial story of the woman who always cut her pot roast in two because her mother did, only to find out later that her mother’s pan was too small to hold the whole roast, it is a mistake to assume that everything a hunter-gathers gather society did was specifically beneficial outside of their particular constraints. There are also reports from Steffanson that the Inuit fed organs to the dogs, not to themselves. Understand that I’m not asserting that we know the organs were less important than some believe, I’m just saying that logically you can’t rule it out. My conservative stance comes from the known importance of the nutrients involved, especially for the brain, but again, the change in metabolism and lack of plants has an effect of unknown magnitude. It’s too soon to make a judgment on that. It’s a fine hypothesis, as far as that goes.

I’ve never found it particularly challenging to get normal fat to protein ratios, of somewhere around 65-80% fat by eating as appetite dictates, with untrimmed fatty steaks, ribs, pork belly… these things are so dripping with fat that it’s hard to eat it all! When I eat leaner, I cook it or serve it with reserved tallow and lard from previous meals. These percentages are the typical profile from the people I’ve interacted with, with the exception of lipophobes who can’t shake the fear of fat, but that’s a general problem with keto. I think this falls out naturally because protein is naturally satiating, and after you’ve had enough you crave fat, as we’ve learned from rabbit starvation. Are you saying you’ve tried this and it was hard for you? You might be surprised at how your appetite is guided in practice.

Carnivory hasn’t been tested by most people on LC, so it’s premature to say whether it would be better or worse in the typical case. Anecdotally, I’ve encountered a handful of people who found no extra benefit, and a handful who it didn’t seem to agree with, but the vast majority of people I’ve talked to who tried it said they felt better than on LC, either somewhat or mind blowingly so. So my guess is different from yours.


#102

@amber Thank you so much for posting this link to Phinney’s interview, I found it rather stunning!! He all but says a carnivorous diet is ideal. I was also surprised to see the interview is eight years old, even though ZC is relatively new to me, some have been thinking about it very deeply for a while.


(L. Amber O'Hearn) #103

Yeah, I was surprised, too! He’s very cautious about his claims professionally, but it’s clear where his personal bets are.


#104

… this way needs lots of money, as meat is more expensive than vegetable for the same amount. <_<


(Chris) #105

Same amount in actual weight? Or same amount in calories and nutrients? The two are not mutually-exclusive.


#106

actual weight, as if in term of calorie and nutrient, it is not convincing to me that it is satisfying.


(Genevieve Biggs) #107

I eat cheaper on carnivore than on any other protocol. Depending on my choices, I eat for $5-10 per day most days. :wink:

ZC 15 months


#108

Yup, now I am eating ZC the household food cost has decreased significantly.


(Arlene) #109

I am not “strict” zero carb, but I do prefer it most days, and whether I’m eating zero carb or adding in a few veggies, this way of eating is definitely MUCH cheaper than my former SAD habits. Those who make claims about LCHF being expensive obviously have a hidden agenda, because anyone who eats this way has found out the real truth about eating real food. All costs associated with eating AND health care go down, and you get to feel great in the process.


(Chris) #110

That or they stuff themselves with shitty “keto” copies of bad foods from their past. I hear chugging olive oil can get pricey too.


#111

then I must be the one who is not able to find the truth yet. <_<

meat is more expensive than green, which is more expensive than grain(rice, bread, noodles)

I know that the health care will go down… sorry, let me add in a word: maybe.

Who can be sure that keto will make you get no disease?
I mean, long time ago, the low fat diet is said to be the cure of all the modern disease, but it ends up making the situation worse. Now, I find it hard not to compare between keto and low-fat diet.

As much as I would like to believe keto is the way to go(because I actually prefer to eat as much as possible without restriction of the amount), I find myself unable to stop wondering and comparing. What if this way(keto) is also wrong?

(Also, real food is good, but I need to spend time to prepare… <_< or eat out, at the possibility of eating lots of hidden carb from the outside food)


(Rob) #112

What you need to consider is some way of fairly comparing various foods from a cost effectiveness POV. One way is to consider calories/$. A friend of mine did that at college and it led to some very bad (but survivable at that age) food decisions. A diet of Mars bars and scotch eggs is not recommended… well maybe the scotch eggs. :yum:
Anyway, here is someone’s list. It is US based, dated and clearly not comprehensive or necessarily super accurate but it is something for reference.


If you scan down the list, the top 50 or so things are almost all carbs or carb/fat combos. Only keto things are cream, whole milk, eggs, cheap ground beef and weirdly super cheap OO. So carbs are definitely waaaay cheaper per calorie BUT there are no greens anywhere on that list. To get your required energy, non starchy vegetables are NOT cost effective.
In reality if I cook a large skin-on chicken thigh it costs me about 80c for the food cost. Brussels sprouts to go with it (with limited energy potential) is about $1.25 before the bacon grease to fry them and give them flavor and energy/fat. Cabbage is cheaper for a cup but even that for one portion costs about the same as the chicken and provides almost no energy until you put 30c of butter on it.
So, my point is… carbs and cheap seed oil fats are the cheapest source of calories but cheap fatty meat is much more cost effective to make up your meals that trying to eat enough greens to do it. I don’t think I could afford to be a keto vegan :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Things could be very different in Singapore but this applies in NA and EU and I suspect everywhere not on a salad farm.


(Chris) #113

“How to get Scurvy: A Beginner’s Guide”

I swear the zerocarb reddit had this exact story. It was an economics major or something and he did the math on the way to eat for as cheap as possible through the summer off time (he stayed on campus), and stay drunk the entire time. Half way through summer he had the scurv, doc even gave him a pamphlet that said “So you have scurvy”. Fun times.

We should perhaps look at price vs. bioavailable micronutrients, since you can hit keto macros with vegetable oil and mealworms if you had to.


(Sondra Rose) #114

I eat mostly 100% grass fed ground beef. About a pound a day. My food cost is $150 a month. Much less expensive than when I was a vegetarian or even a veggie-eating keto person.


(Brian) #115

Cheap veggies tend to be the ones you grow and preserve yourself. Some of us have the land, the means, and the time to do so. A frugal gardener can grow a LOT of top quality produce for not a whole lot of money. But it does take time and often can take several years of soil building to get the soil quality built to the point that you get top quality produce.

I am working on that right now. The added benefit is that I’ll get some good exercise out in the fresh air and sunshine. :slight_smile:

At some point, I am wanting to get some chickens, too, which will mean good eggs and maybe good chicken, too. But I’m not there yet. I don’t really have the space for cattle here but there are lots of cattle around locally.

I do the best I can. I know there is always room for improvement but I am trying.

:slight_smile:


(Rob) #116

Priceless :rofl::rofl:

Yeah, there’s a lot of ways to look at these “efficiency standards” based on your goals… but you’d still be back to eating liver before choking down stacks of micronutrient poor veggies :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


(Chris) #118

Sure, you don’t have to do anything every day, but don’t fool yourself into thinking that’s anything like ZC. Fruit is sugar and fiber. Nothing that the body needs for anything important.


(Chris) #120

Such as what?

I don’t think it’s wise for either of us to assume one is better than the other, given the state of research.

If you want to have a conversation about it, by all means I’d love to. But you’re just making blanket statements and not explaining why.


(Chris) #122

Didn’t think so.


(Genevieve Biggs) #123

Veterans who have been eating ZC for years ALL say that fruit is unnecessary if not harmful. Dread is right. You can do whatever you want, but don’t call it ZC. It’s confusing for those who want to actually try ZC. No one needs fruit to survive. Meat has all we need. Call yourself keto with minimal fruit, but don’t call yourself ZC.

ZC 15 months