I'll Say One Thing for CICO

(Terence Dean) #101

This is the part that bothers me about this debate, when Dr Fung points to people regaining their weight does he tell you the reason why they got it all back? for example, did they just start eating their same old food again because the study was over, somebody spooned food into their mouths without them noticing, did they keep on the diet and regain every lb of weight lost?

What he’s not telling you is that many people, once they’ve lost the weight, think they don’t need to do anything to stay there or they are so sick of depriving themselves they make up for it in spades. To me that’s not a failure of the diet, its more about the failure of people to maintain their goal weight.

In my case I lost my weight doing JC diets three times, and each time I got so sick of eating low calorie food (cardboard food I used to call it) and being constantly hungry that I ate it all back on.

I didn’t really want to put the weight back on but I also wasn’t going to live the rest of my life eating like a bird. So it was my choice to eat the food I didn’t have to do it, blaming a system of dieting because you don’t have the knowledge to know how to keep it off is just an excuse. Its not my fault its that CICO diet, yeah anything but my fault. With Keto at least the hunger thing to me is a big bonus, perhaps I’ll be able to keep it off this time but no doubt if I drop the ball those pounds will come back. Sorry if this reply comes across negatively, I am really pleased to have found Keto. KCKO.

(Ron) #102

You-all might find this an interesting read as it addresses the CICO theory-

(Karen) #103

I’ve looked through Phinney’s 4 phases and you slowly shift your macros. No change in kcals, But Not eating over your needs either.

On this you can see he used more carbs. I think he worked with athletes. He showed his expenditure=BMI+,TDEE. Over time his plate fat intake increased, because he was not getting as many calories from his own fat as his body fat deceased AND his BMI decreased as his weight decreased.

Just wish my body would move forward and eat my body fat. This suggests a deficit that is made up by body fat in the early stages.

K

(Pete A) #104

Love the chart, thanks for posting!

(Tricia) #105

Yes, I love the chart also, but how do you know when to change?

(LeeAnn Brooks) #106

The reason CICO, low diets fail (nearly universally) is they are unsustainable. It’s easy to blame the individual, but how is it the individual when something like 90% fail?

CICO lowers the BMR. After months of lowered calories, it then takes fewer calories to maintain weight, let alone lose more. So to keep losing, the individual has to lower even more. Or exercise more. But exercising more means the body wants more calories and hunger kicks in.
Both options are unsustainable because it’s not possible to go long term at extremely restricted calories. So even going up to a more reasonable calorie level inevitably adds weight.

In addition, low fat diets don’t control appetite and cause cravings. An individual can only hold out so long.

It’s a recipie for failure. And it’s not the individuals fault. If it were mearly a character flaw, you would see a much higher rate of success.

(TJ Borden) #107

One like wasn’t enough… :heart: :heart: :heart:

(Terence Dean) #108

Its a lack of knowledge in my opinion. For instance I never knew that carbs were being converted to sugars, and that animal fat was not dangerous to your health, that increasing your salt intake was ok, on the contrary drinking lo fat milk is healthier, and on it went. Oh yes we must eat whole meal bread because that’s more healthy than white bread, and better for you, high fibre, high fibre, etc. Keto goes against the norm.

That’s what we’ve all come to believe because we listen to so called healthy advice from our governments, and medical experts.

Keto will fail just as quickly if we don’t change our old ways of eating, is that the fault of Keto? Of course it isn’t.

As Brenda says: [quote=“Brenda, post:1, topic:4418”]
Cruel reality: If you are here to lose weight, you’ll gain it all back the moment you go back to the standard American high carb diet.
[/quote]

(LeeAnn Brooks) #109

The question for me is “is it sustainable?”

Either one has to be a WOL, not a diet, to maintain. CICO is not sustainable. Keto is.

It’s just that simple for me.

(TJ Borden) #110

So you mean “can you tolerate steak, bacon and eggs the rest of your life?”

FUCK YEAH.

(Ron) #111

Terence,
Read the article I linked earlier. It will explain a different way than your thinking.:ok_hand::slightly_smiling_face:

(Central Florida Bob ) #112

I shouldn’t really try to answer this because I don’t know. My guess is that chances are the investigators don’t really know most of the time.

(Terence Dean) #113

Theoretically Keto should be more sustainable than CICO but there are people who have fallen of the Keto wagon, so its not totally foolproof or guaranteed, my point is we still play a major part in whether it fails or succeeds.

(TJ Borden) #114

You are totally correct, but the long term success rate of keto verses CICO is HUGE. The dudes talked about that in one of the latest podcasts

(Robert C) #115

I’m pretty sure early on (early video series and in The Obesity Code) Dr. Fung said all diets work and then all diets eventually fail - even keto (he may have changed his thinking more recently).

His point was that permanent change was really only going to happen with fasting.

Of course, I do not know either way but, I can see the argument - regular meal skipping creating very long periods of low insulin seems like it could make permanent weight lowering changes.

Keto will get you down to some plateau or “Phinney weight” (and get you good blood numbers and a happy brain) but, if you want to go lower - I think some sort of fasting scheme is going to be necessary.

(Terence Dean) #116

Sorry Bob my questions were rhetorical.

(TJ Borden) #117

We couldn’t tell because we couldn’t see your face with the mask on. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Sarah Slancauskas) #118

From my experience CICO is sustainable- I sustained it my entire adult life and have never been overweight. Why? Because I found foods I enjoyed which were within the calorie limits and found exercise I enjoyed and decided to stick with it. My reason for keto is brain health and I still apply a calorie restriction on what I eat and exercise 6 days a week.
Keto is a great diet but it isn’t perfect. It’s only easier to stick to if you naturally like high fat meats and other fatty food. For people who loved bread, pasta and fruit it is just as difficult to stick to as any other restrictive diet. Any restriction is going to be problematic for people who have trouble with their weight and willpower and a host of other issues. People on this forum “fall off the horse” or find themselves in a binge fairly frequently-just like any other diet.
Keto has helped me with sugar cravings and I’m definitely a fan of this way if eating, but I think it’s utter denial to state that it’s somehow easier or more sustainable than other diets because that depends solely on the individual.

(Sarah Slancauskas) #119

I’ll also add that the keto way of eating has a few drawbacks which can aggravate enough to stop people following it long term which are not weight related. Some of these include detrimental effect on exercise performance, hair loss, weak nails, constipation, low energy, bad breath, low mood… now to many these issues might not be that bothersome but to others they could be the element they can’t tolerate. For me (I’ve experienced all of the above) the exercise performance issue is a significant one and although I intend to follow keto long term, I think at some point I will decide to go more paleo to address it if it continues. To people who don’t exercise this would be a non issue: again it’s very dependent on the individual. But it shows that keto is only sustainable if it particularly suits you!

(LeeAnn Brooks) #120

Then you have never been on CICO for weight loss and really don’t pertain to anything we are talking about. If you’ve never been over weight, you don’t have a metabolism that allows it. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. But it’s a whole different ballgame for those of us who struggle.