It may not work, but at least you know what you’re supposed to do.
Not losing enough: “eat less, move more!!”
Not losing fast enough: “eat less, move more!!”
Gaining back some: “eat less, move more!!”
(pretty much any problem at all) “eat less, move more!!”
With our group we say: “eat more fat”. “Or eat more, move less”. Or it’s stress Or fast more. Or don’t do OMAD Or a dozen other things.
You might have sensed a little frustration from my coming to grips with apparently having gained about a pound a month since the first of the year.
You are simply eating 116.6 too many calories per day, easy.
Since CICO is so good it is easy to adjust for this online, I suggest 19:20 of curling per day, maybe canoeing for 6:22.
I’m with you. Counting calories made sense at the time we did burning calories exercising. But now, I’ve lost but am struggling to move a set point. I have been solidly keto and solidly 160,lbs. I look much better, but darn it I want to reduce more. , ADF,TMD,OMAD IF variations,ZC, water fast, fat fast. Ugh.
K
It’s one of the reasons I use exogenous ketones. It really does help with the “eat less” part… near instant satiety. Now, that might be the mineral load of the ketone salts, but it works.
When I move more, I hurt myself. I’d love to do it, but for right now it’s not a valid option.
Yeah keto does seem kind of muddled and nebulous by comparison. It definitely works, but it feels like we haven’t really hammered out the exact methodology quite yet. Once you get deep into it, you’re fat adapted but still struggling to lose a few more pounds, the suggestions get more and more esoteric. Eventually CICO comes back into it in a way. In the context of a ketogenic diet it isn’t really the same thing, but I do see people who are at the ends of their ropes getting back into counting calories. It almost seems to me that keto will get you 90% of the way to wherever you want to be effortlessly, but you have to get creative to get that last 10%.
CICO is the dirty little secret of the keto world.
Dr. Westman has a video where he says the same basic thing: at some point, calories do matter. I’m all but sure I’ve heard the same from other leaders in the field. Doc Nally might run a thousand lab tests and find something else to focus on, but without a keto doctor, we have to try to figure this out ourselves.
Calories strike me as most accurate at the limits. If your intake is zero, eventually you die. Might take a long time, but eventually you starve to death. If your intake is 10,000 calories a day, you’ll put weight on. Maybe not at the calculated 3600 cals/lb, but you’ll gain weight. It’s in that fuzzy, gray area we call “day to day life” that CICO has a hard time.
As Dr. Fung is fond of pointing out, calories in and calories out are not independent variables. Each one affects the other.
True 10000 calories in the prison study and a guy did gain, but lost this quick gain in the following two months of normal eating.
Zero calories and you become my dad who is forcibly doing VSED to die. Ate all his body fat, chewed up a lot of muscle. Very weak but… Still living. On 3 weeks of only the sugar in his meds. (Robutussin,ibuprofen liquids). Hanging leathery skin. But his body won’t die. Was 220 now 110 lbs of skin and bone.
Pete, now at maintenance weight and working on toning, ate 1500 keto calories keto macros, and had a straight line drop to desired weight. Was he restricting? By calculators, yes. In the end, I think he ate his own body fat. We talked about this a bit.
Bob, I think it’s us that have the hard time, because we can’t perfectly account for excretion and storage of calories along with burning them. I have no problem with counting calories, but with hormones acting like ‘gates’ - either opening the gate to fat storage or to using the calories for energy, I know that things are going to be rather fuzzy indeed.
The Biggest Loser contestants, definitely “Eat Less and Move More,” that were studied ended up with an average 789 calorie per day decline in metabolism; significant indeed. Even adjusted for their lower weights, it was 500+ calories per day. Over time, in that very day-to-day life, that’s brutal. I don’t know how long it takes on average for our metabolisms to slow, but after some months (if not less) it’s definitely a thing.
One thing I’ve noticed among people who are at or close to their desired weight, on a ketogenic diet, is that they say they don’t really eat that much - especially not compared to what they consumed at substantially higher weights. For the most part, it seems satisfying to them.
So true - there is such wide variation in our experiences. Definitely confounding at times.
(Oh, and had to laugh - I saw that it’s “Central Florida,” for the “CFL.” Here I was was thinking “Canadian Football League.” )
Gut wrenching… Been there. Wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
Think of you often and wonder how you and your family are coping. I know it’s kinda personal for a forum like this, but I still think of you all and remember you in my prayers.
I think I don’t eat substantially less. Often times it seems that I get hungrier after I eat something small, then have to mentally turn off the desire to eat more. Most of the time, the big meal of the day is dinner, and I eat until I feel full.
So how do you manage this, Karen? Do you budget what your meal should be, weigh and measure portions and all that? Do you measure your BMR? Does it move around?
Like @jmbundy and I were saying farther up, assuming I have gained a full seven pounds since the first of the year, that turns into about 140 calories per day too much. That’s not a lot. I’d guess my wife’s home made Caesar dressing has that in a tablespoon.
I’m a believer in calorie counting being as meaningful as counting fat, then protein. With flexibility and some zigzagging all around… For me the only hard fast rule is gross carbs under 20… and eating to my macros (mainly from the ruledme calc, now maintenance setting).
This week my stomach is becoming a board (NSV!) for the first time in my life… I’m not even sure of my weight today but since May 1st I’ve lost only about 2 pounds. And based on my strength, how I feel, and visually, it’s obvious there’s improved overall muscularity and better proportionately.
Everyone’s different. Lots of generalities float around. To me a calorie is a calorie and if you burn more (at rest and with activity) than you take in, you will see successes.
I plateaued for 3 months. Got 2 jars of Natural peanut butter and ate 2 tablespoons everyday on top of my normal eats. As soon as I stopped eating it (I finished the jar)I lost 2 pound and have been losing steadily ever since.
@CFLBob - Dude, I’m with you. I’m a bit frustrated with what strikes me as a mystical approach by the Keto community in response to weight stalls:
Keto Stallee: I’ve been stalled at 20 pounds over my target weight for 24 months. Here’s what I’ve been doing (description of perfect Keto adherence)
Keto Fan: "You need to be patient. Eat more. Are you sure you been doing (description of perfect Keto adherence)?
Keto Stallee: Wut? Patience? It’s been 24 months, and yes, I’ve been doing (description of perfect Keto adherence). When I eat more, I gain weight.
Keto Fan: (25,000 words of vague assurances and mysticism with no actionable recommendations)
Keto Stallee: Wut? Not one actionable suggestion? I get it - it is completely impossible to break a stall on the Keto WOE. Whatever weight I settle at, that’s what I get?
Keto Fan: (50,000 words expressing confusion as to why someone would want to reach their target weight while still alive).
Keto Stallee: OK, I’m going vegan. At least those guys weigh what they want.
Forgive my rant, I feel better now. Actually, I just broke a 6 month stall by Not Keeping Calm and Taking Action, Goddam It. I’m down 10 pounds in 4 weeks. When I get down 15 more, I will be at my high school weight, at which point, I will post How I Broke My Keto Stall, which I guarantee will be 100% actionable with no vague assurances or mysticism. If you don’t see it, you can assume I wasn’t as smart as I thought.
)
Been there. Wouldn’t wish it on anyone.