I'll Say One Thing for CICO

(the cheater) #95

You’re right; for instance, it would probably require about 3500 calories just to eat 100,000 calories! That sounds exhausting :smile:

(Adam Kirby) #96

What if people diligently count calories and still fail to lose weight? This is a completely ubiquitous situation, happens to almost every dieter, keto or no. Is it inevitably a failing on their part? Something in their control that they must have done wrong?

Or is it a failing of a simplistic math equation that purports to explain all of this?

(karen) #97

I know that this was directed at Dv, but just putting in my two cents: Something about the body’s process has changed. It’s up to the dieter to make an adjustment. Maybe that adjustment is fewer calories. Maybe it’s more calories. Maybe it’s a shot of carbs, or a day of fasting, or a week of eating nothing but bacon. The dieter and the body are no longer working as a team, and it’s not so much that the dieter is “wrong”, it’s that the body is not open to an earnest debate.

(shane ) #98

If they are diligently counting calories with no weight loss I would ask for how long has the “stall” been?

Most people give up the second they see the scale not continue to fall. I know throughout my weight loss my graph line looks a lot more like a mountain range than a free fall off a ledge.

Trends are more important than daily measurements as we all know. However, people who are not tracking trends and instead tracking their daily weight that didn’t fall means their diligent process is failing them.

If you are not losing, or for myself if I am not losing, I will check my data. I will double down on using my food scale again and making sure my portion sizes are correct. Typically my food scale gets used on items I use that are new, as well as all highly caloric foods. However, people become complacent, myself included, and as I quit using my scale over time my portion sizes grow little by little and my deficit can quickly turn into eating at maintenance or worse, above it.

Sodium, stress, etc can also have large effects on daily weight which is why trends in the direction you are wanting to go are so important. Much more so than the daily scale weight.

My entire point in all of this is that track what you can control

If you are not losing weight and don’t know why. Track what you are eating, and adjust it back. If you call that CICO than so be it. I call it easily a repeatable process to get to the direction I am going.

(Central Florida Bob ) #99

From which comes the title of this thread @kib . If you staunchly believe in CICO, you always know the answer. No trials and experiments required. Eat less move more.

Don’t me wrong; it’s not that I’m saying it will always work, I’m saying that’s always what they’ll tell you. It’s literally the only answer the system is capable of giving you if you’re trying to lose weight… From the other side of the coin, I have a friend who has tried to gain weight and bulk up and no matter what he eats and no matter what he does, it makes no difference. His only answer is “eat more, workout harder”.

For those of us with a more nuanced view of the subject, all sorts of puzzling over what to do is our option.

Hmmm. I could live with eating nothing but bacon for a while… :rofl:

(karen) #100

No problem!

(Terence Dean) #101

This is the part that bothers me about this debate, when Dr Fung points to people regaining their weight does he tell you the reason why they got it all back? for example, did they just start eating their same old food again because the study was over, somebody spooned food into their mouths without them noticing, did they keep on the diet and regain every lb of weight lost?

What he’s not telling you is that many people, once they’ve lost the weight, think they don’t need to do anything to stay there or they are so sick of depriving themselves they make up for it in spades. To me that’s not a failure of the diet, its more about the failure of people to maintain their goal weight.

In my case I lost my weight doing JC diets three times, and each time I got so sick of eating low calorie food (cardboard food I used to call it) and being constantly hungry that I ate it all back on.

I didn’t really want to put the weight back on but I also wasn’t going to live the rest of my life eating like a bird. So it was my choice to eat the food I didn’t have to do it, blaming a system of dieting because you don’t have the knowledge to know how to keep it off is just an excuse. Its not my fault its that CICO diet, yeah anything but my fault. With Keto at least the hunger thing to me is a big bonus, perhaps I’ll be able to keep it off this time but no doubt if I drop the ball those pounds will come back. Sorry if this reply comes across negatively, I am really pleased to have found Keto. KCKO.

(Ron) #102

You-all might find this an interesting read as it addresses the CICO theory-

(Karen) #103

I’ve looked through Phinney’s 4 phases and you slowly shift your macros. No change in kcals, But Not eating over your needs either.

On this you can see he used more carbs. I think he worked with athletes. He showed his expenditure=BMI+,TDEE. Over time his plate fat intake increased, because he was not getting as many calories from his own fat as his body fat deceased AND his BMI decreased as his weight decreased.

Just wish my body would move forward and eat my body fat. This suggests a deficit that is made up by body fat in the early stages.

K

(Pete A) #104

Love the chart, thanks for posting!

(Tricia) #105

Yes, I love the chart also, but how do you know when to change?

(LeeAnn Brooks) #106

The reason CICO, low diets fail (nearly universally) is they are unsustainable. It’s easy to blame the individual, but how is it the individual when something like 90% fail?

CICO lowers the BMR. After months of lowered calories, it then takes fewer calories to maintain weight, let alone lose more. So to keep losing, the individual has to lower even more. Or exercise more. But exercising more means the body wants more calories and hunger kicks in.
Both options are unsustainable because it’s not possible to go long term at extremely restricted calories. So even going up to a more reasonable calorie level inevitably adds weight.

In addition, low fat diets don’t control appetite and cause cravings. An individual can only hold out so long.

It’s a recipie for failure. And it’s not the individuals fault. If it were mearly a character flaw, you would see a much higher rate of success.

(TJ Borden) #107

One like wasn’t enough… :heart: :heart: :heart:

(Terence Dean) #108

Its a lack of knowledge in my opinion. For instance I never knew that carbs were being converted to sugars, and that animal fat was not dangerous to your health, that increasing your salt intake was ok, on the contrary drinking lo fat milk is healthier, and on it went. Oh yes we must eat whole meal bread because that’s more healthy than white bread, and better for you, high fibre, high fibre, etc. Keto goes against the norm.

That’s what we’ve all come to believe because we listen to so called healthy advice from our governments, and medical experts.

Keto will fail just as quickly if we don’t change our old ways of eating, is that the fault of Keto? Of course it isn’t.

As Brenda says: [quote=“Brenda, post:1, topic:4418”]
Cruel reality: If you are here to lose weight, you’ll gain it all back the moment you go back to the standard American high carb diet.
[/quote]

(LeeAnn Brooks) #109

The question for me is “is it sustainable?”

Either one has to be a WOL, not a diet, to maintain. CICO is not sustainable. Keto is.

It’s just that simple for me.

(TJ Borden) #110

So you mean “can you tolerate steak, bacon and eggs the rest of your life?”

FUCK YEAH.

(Ron) #111

Terence,
Read the article I linked earlier. It will explain a different way than your thinking.:ok_hand::slightly_smiling_face:

(Central Florida Bob ) #112

I shouldn’t really try to answer this because I don’t know. My guess is that chances are the investigators don’t really know most of the time.

(Terence Dean) #113

Theoretically Keto should be more sustainable than CICO but there are people who have fallen of the Keto wagon, so its not totally foolproof or guaranteed, my point is we still play a major part in whether it fails or succeeds.

(TJ Borden) #114

You are totally correct, but the long term success rate of keto verses CICO is HUGE. The dudes talked about that in one of the latest podcasts