Ice bath affects on ketosis test for fun


(John A Buckwalter) #1

Just for fun, I did a keto science experiment. This morning I had a fasted (12 hour fast) I had a Ketone blood test 0.2 mm/dl with a blood sugar of 111. While remaining in a fasted state after taking a 30-minute ice bath while breathing exercises ( Wim Hoff style, kind of)

and a 30-minute rewarm bath I repeated the tests - Ketone came in at 0.4 blood sugar 87 I expected the blood sugar to be lowered due to the dawn effect but for me the 0.4 reading is significant.
This is only a data point if one. The test cost me 4$ in strips so I would not want to spend that every day but it was fun to do.

Although technically this level is under under the nutritional ketosis protocol traditionally itā€™s been very difficult for me to go very deep and ketosis I have a hard time to ever get above 0.6 even after continuous fasting and exercise.


#2

I remember a longecity member saying he greatly increased his insulin sensitivity with large amounts of cold exposure. He wore a homemade cold vest for many hours a day.


(Solomom A) #3

Please, why didnā€™t you allow your metabolism to rewarm your body rather than taking a 30 minute rewarm bath? I suppose you would have had a higher ketone and lower glucose readings as your muscles/brown adipose tissue would have worked harder to restore your body back to normal temperature, my 2 cents.


#4

cannot compute
cannot compute
words ā€˜it was funā€™ and ā€˜30 minute ice bathā€™ incompatible in same post
cannot compute
cannot compute


(TJ Borden) #5

Along the lines of what @solomon was getting at. This seems pretty obvious. Your metabolism has to increase to help regulate your body temp against the cold. You used up available glucose first, then ketone production had to ramp up to compensate.

The greatest part (in my opinion) is it shows the power of something as simple as temperature has on the metabolic rate. Something CICO chasers canā€™t account for.


(Bob M) #6

On the Ketohacking MD podcast, Dr. Limansky had Jimmy Moore doing HIIT (20 minutes?) then IR sauna (20 minutes?) then an ice bath (20 minutes?). I donā€™t think they got to real analysis of data, yet. They were discussing the protocol. Iā€™ve been attempting to take cold showers, but that pales in comparison to real ice.

Thatā€™s an amazing blood sugar decrease. During ā€œexerciseā€, my blood sugar goes up. Itā€™d be interesting to experiment with cold therapy.


(John A Buckwalter) #7

Youā€™re exactly right Iā€™m working up to allowing my metabolism to warm myself up itā€™s just that when I get out of the ice bath. I have been working on suppressing my shivering response and doing calisthenics to try to warm myself up I can usually last like 8 - 10 minutes but Iā€™m just so cold I just need to get into warm water


(John A Buckwalter) #8

Iā€™ll have to check that podcast out something to listen to while Iā€™m in an ice bath


(Thomas P Seager, PhD) #9

The replies here are way better than the advice Iā€™ve heard get from medical doctors and nutritionists.

My own research is here

Cold exposure uses glucose, cause the release of free fatty acids into the bloodstream, and stimulates the liver to produce ketones immediately. The quickest route to keto is in the ice bath, so the experience of the original poster is consistent with scientific studies.


(Bob M) #10

Is that also cold exposure outside, lightly clothed? Or is more intense cold, such as from an ice bath, necessary?

I know I used to take cold(er) showers, but I saw the data for cold showers was not really there. And often in the middle of winter, the last thing I want to take is a cold shower.


(Thomas P Seager, PhD) #11

One studies Iā€™ve read used 32F air for 90 minutes, dressed in T-shirts and shorts to measure ketones. Another was closer to 50F air, which was enough to reverse Type 2 diabetes in 10 days.

I donā€™t have 90 minutes to stand around in a freezer, so I use 4 min in 35F water instead. I havenā€™t done the math, but the argument is that itā€™s time under temperature that matters. Some equation of minutes multiplied by the number of degrees below body temp might allow us to compute an index of cold exposure that is applicable between freezing and the high 60ā€™s F.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #12

My self observations (autopsy). Iā€™ve been relatively thin all my life. I ate SAD (and drank beer) for pretty much 70 years without serious detrimental effects until my 60s when I started slowly gaining weight. So my guess is that by then my metabolism was beginning to get insulin resistant. This reversed completely when I started keto at the age of 71 four and a half years ago. Iā€™m back to about exactly my weight and comp when I was 18. And Iā€™ll take it!

All those years I preferred cold to hot. Sure, when young I could sun bathe on the beach - for a couple of hours. I spent most of my childhood in Savannah, Ga. But even then I preferred the air-conditioned lounge afterwards. Heat literally makes me melt. Did so all my life and continues to do so. I lived for a decade at Lake Laberge Yukon (the 70s, when the big climate threat was the coming Ice Age!). Summers were moderately warm and short, winters were very cold and long. I thrived in that environment. In fact, I looked forward to the coming Ice Age with eager anticipation.

So I think there are some of us who are genetically preconditioned to being heat radiators, or ā€˜wasting energyā€™, as Bikman puts it so succinctly. Maybe my predilection for cold is an indication that I gravitate towards the best place to be - for me.


(Thomas P Seager, PhD) #13

There are some people who are born with more brown fat and have a genetic predisposition to keeping it. You might be one of those people!

Because brown fat is associated with leaner body composition, and responsible for non-shivering thermogenesis, it could explain your preference for cold.

And Bikmanā€™s book Why We Get Sick is fantastic, I think.


(Bob M) #14

For Bikmanā€™s book is there anything in it to recommend to someone like me, who has read a ton of low carb/keto books (and blogs and articles andā€¦)? Was thinking of getting it, but havenā€™t bought a book in this area for a few years (other than Jen Unwinā€™s book, but itā€™s more about carb addiction).


(Thomas P Seager, PhD) #15

Bikmanā€™s book has good info about which low carb sweeteners are alright (e.g., Stevia) and which are not.


(Bob M) #16

Thatā€™s useful info.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #17

I had forgotten about this series of posts. Thanks for reviving it and bringing it back to my attention.

Adding to my autopsy above. A fairly typical fall in Vancouver has turned into a beast of a year-end. I posted the following the weekend before Christmas:

This had been ongoing for a couple of weeks by the time I got around to making the photo and posting it. Although uncomfortable, the temps never got below freezing, just close to it, but the persistent rain made it feel worse. Just to the left of the doors pictured is another set of non-closing doors and the Customer Service Desk. In front - from where I made the photo - are 8 Self-Checkout Scanners. Immediately behind the scanners are 6 cashier lanes. All of these areas are directly exposed to the incoming inclement weather from these non-functioning doors. Consequently, the indoor temp only gradually increased as you advanced deeper into the store.

As long as the outside temp remained above freezing I was not particularly uncomfortable. Although, I felt cool and did wear a long-sleeved T-shirt under my Walmart short-sleeved shirt and vest. Most of my co-workers were very uncomfortable. Admittedly, this was not a productive nor safe environment for folks to work in hours each day. I suspect the BC Labour Relations Board might agree.

I think it was Monday of Christmas week, however, that the temp dropped to -5 -10Ā°C daily. The temp has remained well below freezing to this day and no sign yet that itā€™s going to get warmer any time soon. Those open doors have rendered that part of the store almost unbearable even for me! In fact, the week preceding Christmas I contracted pneumonia, bronchitis and strep throat one after the other in quick succession! Iā€™ve managed to throw them all off one by one very quickly, but the stress of dealing with the cold and wet for hours on end was too much. Fortunately, I had 4 consecutive off-days beginning on the 25th, so I had lots of time to rest and recuperate. My co-workers are wearing their outside winter clothing in that area. Theyā€™re all years or decades younger than I am, but Iā€™m sure theyā€™re feeling very stressed by it as well. I may thrive in cooler temps, but even I have my limitations!


#18

I actually found this thread through reading your original article on this topic; thanks so much for sharing your experience with the community!

My experience is so much more different than yours and everyone else and I wanted to see if anyone else is similar to me. Iā€™ve been fully keto for about 3 weeks now and just recently Iā€™ve been able to record blood ketone levels consistently for 5 days straight between .6 and 1 (this data is from my readings taken at around 10:30/11:00 a.m. before my first meal at noon and I usually fast for either 12 or 16 hours). Iā€™ve taken a few blood ketone readings upon waking up and after my cold shower (temperature between 53 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit, water pressure on high and I stay in the water for approximately 5 minutes and never less than 2 minutes, spinning around to make sure everywhere gets wet. And this is done in the early morning after a HIIT or light cardio 20-30 min exercise) and they have always been between .3 and .5. This, based on some articles I read, made sense because cold showers cause an increase in insulin to help shuttle more glucose into the tissue. But Iā€™ve become confused after reading your experience and others in this thread. Lastly after my cold showers, when I take my blood ketone reading at around 11/11:30a.m. (which is about 4-5 hours after the cold shower and Iā€™m still in my fast), my readings are back at .8/.9.


(Bob M) #19

Youā€™d have to take morning ketones before your shower, then sometime after the shower, to see what happens. I typically have lower ketones in the morning, higher in the evening, so without knowing a ā€œnormalā€ day ketones, itā€™s hard to tell whatā€™s going on.


#20

Iā€™ve taken my morning blood ketone level readings upon waking up and they are always low and never above .5, which makes sense based on what Iā€™ve read. And since they increase to between .7 and 1 when I take more readings at around 11 a.m. an hour before my first meal of the day it further perpetuates what Iā€™ve come to understand about the early morning rise in glucose levels.

My issue is having low ketones after a cold shower when everyone else is getting high(er?) blood ketone readings under the same experience.