I know "too much protein" isn't a thing on carnivore. Is "not enough fat" a thing on carnivore?

#1

do the ratios just not matter like they do on regular keto?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #2

Fat is fuel, protein is construction materials. Your metabolism can burn protein as fuel if it has to, but it’s more costly in terms of energy to do so because it’s a more complicated pathway. If you’re trying to lose lean body mass, not a problem.

(Full Metal KETO AF) #3

Yes it is because protein alone doesn’t supply much energy to burn. You need that fat. Lots of carnivores get beef fat from butchers really cheap and add some to their meal. Or suet, butter, bacon and bacon fat. Of course carnivores are individuals and what they choose varies. Some won’t use rendered fats. Paleomedicina recommendations a
20-30% protein and 70-80% calories from fat. Other carnivores just eat ribeye and fatty ground beef, some eat eggs and cheese. But you need fats. :cowboy_hat_face:

(bulkbiker) #4

Not enough fat could be a thing… google “rabbit starvation”…

But if you are eating lots of beef you’ll be getting plenty of fat anyway.

(Bob M) #5

It might be a thing.

See this, where the woman ate very high fat carnivore and lost weight (and decreased LDL):

#6

oh wow I’m definitely not in danger of rabbit starvation, haha… just read about that. Had never heard of it before.

Thanks, guys! I was just curious because there are some days it seems like my protein is higher than my fat (whereas on regular keto fat needs to be higher than protein). That’s if I didn’t specifically add fat on purpose. Like today, I really don’t think I could stomach the extra tablespoon of ghee that would have helped my fat grams exceed my protein grams. So today my protein is just gonna have to be higher. That’s not common though. I just felt like having some chicken today but my appetite can’t handle any added fat right now… :smiley: So I guess my question could have been phrased to imply macro percentages rather than quantities.

Now I realize “enough” or “not enough” could also depend on your goals. Personally my goal is to lose just a teeny-tiny bit more of body fat (not necessarily trying to lose “weight”), but if I don’t, that’s ok… and …. not die. So mostly just to stay healthy and feel good! After a slight detour out of maintenance the past couple weeks, I think I’m back.

(Rebecca 🌸 Frankenfluffy) #7

Too much protein was certainly an issue with me after my 14oz steak last night! Woke up this morning with a BG of 11.1mmol/l… and it was 6.4 at 2am.

Still, it was delicious. Dialled up my insulin pump to bring myself back down again once I’d got up this morning.

(Bob M) #8

It doesn’t affect us all that way, though. I’ve eaten massive amounts of protein per meal (over 200g), and have yet to see any increase or decrease in blood sugar at any time.

If your insulin (or glucagon) response is not good, though, you could get a response. 11.1 is quite high. I rarely get that. I had an OGTT with 75 pure glucose, and didn’t hit that level.

(bulkbiker) #9

How are you measuring fat and protein?

The PKD protocol (so far as I know) is 2:1 fat to protein by weight… so for every gram of protein 2 grams of fat.

Most people however look at it as calorie percentage where a rib eye steak is 75% fat to 25% carbs (roughly)

#10

Still totally not a carnivore but I am quite sure I still can have some not stupid opinion.

An occasional day doesn’t matter and I seriously doubt there is any sense to have some fixed ratio, people are different anyway, with different goals. ONE tablespoon of ghee? Seriously now, that’s insignificant if not very frequent, you don’t mind a tiny fat loss anyway.
Fat is needed but it doesn’t mean it must be higher than protein for everyone and especially not all the time. I understand you didn’t want to add a lot of extra fat when you eat leaner meat, of course you shouldn’t force yourself. If it would be your typical day, I would advise you eat fattier meat but now and then it should be fine. Unless if you stay too hungry or something. (My day with just a bit chicken gave me so crazy protein intake that I surely won’t eat much lean meat in the future, it’s good I prefer my food fatty. But I won’t exactly avoid leaner meat, it’s fine now and then especially if I can balance them out with some super fatty stuff, I have ideas, mostly involving lots of egg yolks. But some folks eat really high-protein without a worry. We handle this differently.)

Yep, goals and other factors matter a lot. If I am a small, not active one who don’t mind losing some weight (I am close to that), I surely can get away with really little fat. But I would hate to eat 1000g protein a day just to get my energy for some active, big body, that would seriously annoy me even if I surely would eat enough fat to avoid rabbit starvation. And it’s not very realistic to eat carnivore with really low fat. Not enough for the one in question? That’s doable especially if the goal is gaining muscle so we need to eat over our energy needs and our body doesn’t feel it must keep us from dying.

Apropos, not dying? Let’s hope your body (and mind) is smarter than letting you waste away, I wouldn’t worry about that :slight_smile:

How you feel best, with how much fat and how much protein, that’s up to you to figure out (at least you can calculate some vague adequate protein range if you are into tracking for some reason).

(Elizabeth ) #11

It’s not that they don’t matter, carnivore is recommended to start at about 80-20, but people very quickly settle into what feels best for them. If you don’t have enough energy add more fat. If you’re starting to get the runs lean up a little bit. It becomes much more intuitive. And as people get older very often they wind up with a little bit higher protein more like 65-35

(Rebecca 🌸 Frankenfluffy) #12

Am T1D, so reliant on planning ahead to ward these kinds of numbers off in advance. On this occasion I had had too much red wine (2 whole glasses) to bother overriding my pump programming!

#13

I’m not really measuring it intentionally, just tracking what I end up eating to see how the macros land. However, I think there is NO WAY I could eat 2:1 fat to protein. No possible way! I would totally barf.

#14

wait a sec maybe I misunderstood… 2:1 by weight? I’m trying to think that through, what an example would be…

#15

ok yeah that’s impossible… lol… what am I not getting? 16 oz of meat would mean 32 oz of fat? lol… I’m confused.

(Bob M) #16

I see, so the alcohol helped hold down the initial blood sugar hit, then the blood sugar this came in later.

You T1s definitely need to account for protein.

(Rebecca 🌸 Frankenfluffy) #17

Yeeeeeees, but because it was a protein rise rather than a carb rise it was a slower and later burn. I’m in the middle of a two-week carnivore experiment, so apart from the wine I had no other carbs on board. Any overnight spikes for me tend to begin to happen at around 2am, so that’s when I have an alarm set for testing and any pump dosing adjustments.

Woke up at 2, as usual, and gaily went back to sleep after testing, as at 6.4 no massive rise seemed to be in progress…

The end of the blood glucose-suppressing activity of the wine, as you say, most likely coincided with the protein hit, hence the 11.1 (rather than, say, 8.1-9.1). But I’m pretty sure that I would have been higher than I wanted to be this morning, just on the steak factor alone.

:cut_of_meat:

I hate hate hate all these maths/planning/beating-myself-up-for-getting-it wrong aspects of having diabetes. But on this occasion that steak was 14 ounces of worth it.

#18

Not impossible but it sounds extreme indeed, people rarely eat such overly fatty meat, fried egg yolks could do the trick though.
But people rarely eat like that and probably very few people need it, fortunately.

#19

ok wow I’m dumb. So for example, 90 grams of protein and 180 grams of fat, would be 2:1. That’s not that crazy, but it’s way too much fat for me. I feel sick after about 130 grams of fat, tops!

(Daisy) #20

I’m glad you posted this. I’ve tracked the last 2 days of beef only and my protein is way higher than usual and my fat lower. I was just wondering about this question. Now to go read all the replies lol

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