I don't want to start a war but

(Joe ) #1

Hi first post for me, new to keto first month in so still learning. I came from a what seems to me the reverse path eg been IF + EF for last 6 months. To get some tips etc from keto groups I join a few facebook groups.
What has surprised me was the division amongst the keto diet. It seems very “tribal”.
Could someone “calmly” explain to me the what is the main difference/similarity points of the different groups?
From what I can determine ( and please correct me or add to the list) the groups are
butter chugers, then the groups who rival them eg against eating too much fat,
The other division seems to be around protein, too much/ too little,
Are these division also found in this forum or which group does it aligned?

(Ken) #2

Within all the different frameworks and opinions, the commonality is that all result in lipolysis. (keto). It’s that some are convinced that their view is “best” or “correct” etc. The truth is, is that nutrition can be a very adaptive process, responding to not only factors like genetics, activity level, but also overall lifestyle and others. One method or view appropriate at one stage of the adaptive process may not be as effective once the body adapts. It’s crazy to get acrimonious about what are essentially minor differences of opinion. There’s not very much of that on this board.

(Brian) #3

Joe, you’re going to find lots of different opinions out there. This forum is no exception. One thing about this forum is that there is a lot of respect between members of differing opinions. It’s one of the reasons I have stuck around here where I have not in some other places.

No one set of absolute macros works for everyone and I might suggest that macros will likely change over time for the person being guided by them. So where a person is coming from, their personal perspective, will have a lot to do with what kind of eating will work well for them. Are they a man or a woman? Are they young or old? Are they 400 pounds looking to drop to 180? Or are they 190 pounds looking to drop to 180? Are they lean and muscular wanting to add muscle? Are they soft and flabby just wanting to survive? Do they exercise, and how much?

It’s all over the map. And you’ll find various people here that describe most of the places a person can live. You’ll find people that can’t do dairy. You’ll find others that eat a lot of dairy and do just fine. You’ll find people who can’t do artificial sweeteners and may have nasty reactions if they have them. And you’ll find others who can handle those artificial sweeteners just fine. You’ll find people that have to limit their protein input and you’ll find others that have to eat more protein than they might naturally want to in order to be successful in their diets. You’ll find people who eat only meat and almost never touch a vegetable. You’ll find people that eat only plant based and almost never touch an animal product. It really is that diverse.

I started at 285+ pounds with a goal of around 195 or so. I found that I ate more fat at the beginning of my journey and that worked well for a while. I am finding that now that I am about 2/3 of the way to my goal, the fat consumption has needed to come down a bit and the protein that I need has gone up. That may be in sharp contrast to other people that need more fat and less protein. I’m just fine with that because they don’t condemn me and I don’t condemn them. We’re different. And that’s OK.

People probably get tired of reading it but this is very much an N=1 kind of thing. A person has to figure out what works for them. And once they figure out what works for them, they do it until it doesn’t work for them anymore, then, one more time, they figure it out again.

So if you’re looking for a one-size-fits-all, you won’t find it. If you’re looking for the ultimate formula that will work for everyone, you won’t find it. You’ll find enough things that work for enough people that there are likely to be some suggestions, i.e. keep the carbs and sugars very low, protein moderate and fat high, (or something similar), that it might give a good place for a person to start their keto journey.

I’m not sure I would characterize that as “division”. Differences of opinion, sure. Different views of a multitude of topics, sure. I would imagine I’ve even had a change of opinion or two since I started visiting here. (It would be silly to think that a person who is learning anything at all would never change an opinion.) I’d like to think we grow as people. And this is a pretty good place to do that, at least in my opinion. :wink:

(Primalwoodsman) #4

HI Joe and welcome to the forums, I’m new here but low-carber for over 20 years. My thoughts on that is that you can take almost any topic and find different viewpoints , where people have conviction, claims and supporting research for their point of view. As always one must sift through the varioius “best ways” and find out what works best for them. That being said the basic jist shoud be relatively consistent and from there you build your own framwork of knowledge and experiences. Just keep it simple, don’t get bogged down by contradictions you run across.

(Chris W) #5

I think the only common view point here us besides maybe the 20g carb limit is that carbs suck and have destroyed many peoples health.
You will see this a lot when some one asks a question.
Its all about your experiment, nobody is identical we all have con founders.
We support one another there is no real best proven method, what worked for me yesterday is not always even going to work for me tomorrow. Its all part of the experience and its changing daily as we all discover new things.

Keep Calm and Keto On!

(Karl) #6

I think there’s even more groups than that branching off :slight_smile:

I come from the Mostly-Keto-Compliant Cheap Aldi’s Junk food with Unlimited Artificial Sweeteners that can’t eat fat to satiety without gaining weight splinter cell. It’s a wonderful cell, though a tiny one :slight_smile:

Many who see success doing keto a certain way will always claim their way is THE way. Don’t buy into that, it’s bullshit. The gymbros will always say too much protein isn’t a thing, yet others will say it stalls their progress. Personally, I don’t see either side as being completely right or wrong, just that everyone’s different and reacts differently to different macro percentages and activity levels. Some people have to count calories, or they overeat and gain weight. Some can eat 5,000 calories a day and not gain anything significant. My wife doesn’t even have to keep Keto - No matter what she does, even at our age (late 40’s), she manages to stay right around 115-120lb while I could gain 15lb by staring at an oreo. Keto is the only way I can eat and not feel hungry all the time.

Keto isn’t magic. You still have to take it all in and experiment to see what works for you as an individual.

(Raj Seth) #7

I wonder what would happen if you had a passing glance at an entire box of them :rofl:

(Primalwoodsman) #8

when a piece of whte bread tastes likea mouthful of sugar you know your on the right track. That happened to me 20 years ago.

(Diane) #9

Where do I sign up for this group??? I thought I was the only one. See my YouTube video on Keto and Kegels channel from this morning. I just downgraded all my macros. Haven’t lost a thing in 4 months! Some of us just can’t chug butter and load up on the protein. :frowning:

(Rob) #10

I think I saw that on a T-shirt once… catchy :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I started out Aldi or Aldi-esque and whether I keep keto-ing on at Whole Foods (due to a significant change in circumstances and much closer proximity), I will never denigrate “cheap” keto.

This - it the prime form of idiocy that plagues all areas of our society. A lack of empathy, self awareness or intellectual laziness to see the many paths to success in any field. I have been very successful in some areas of life, spectacularly failed in others but I am old enough and hopefully wise enough to see so many ways to do what I did and also do it better. I still catch myself being dismissive of alternative approaches sometimes, but that is typically in the learning phases where I am getting to grips with something complicated and haven’t yet understood the nuances of what I’m studying. Only later do I see what a blinkered muppet I was. Rice + Sugar can make your healthy… go figure! It’s happened in keto and elsewhere.

(Diane) #11

Here is a good thread that explores some of the ideas expressed here.

(Karl) #12


(Ken) #13

Here’s an example of a difference of opinion as well as practice. When I’m in a heavy training cycle I occasionally do glycogen recompensation, and yes, I’ve used Oreos. Not one or two, but one or two PACKS. And a quart of skim milk. Since I’m literally cramming an extra day’s calories of carbs into my pie hole over a 36 hr period, they were only a part of the carbs I ate. Sure, I experienced some bloating and water werght gain, but after 48 hrs everything was back to normal and my gym performance was improved. This type of thing is normal for me, but massive Heresy to others.

(Doree Mortillo) #14

So far I think I’m just trying to see what works for me. One of the things I’m doing which I found really helpful is I went back on the podcasts from the 2 keto dudes and started at episode 1. Right now I’m up to January of 2017, the science to me sometimes is overwhelming in a little bit boring, but I still am trying to learn from them LOL!!
As far as all the different opinions here I know what you’re saying two of the things I heard so far that really hit me as being true are…1. don’t talk about this diet like you invented it, be respectful of others…and 2. See what works for you. I used to do the Adkins and high protein I did lose weight but not a lot of it, and I didn’t feel good like I do now. I raised my fat some but one of the things that I heard in the podcast is when you’re fat adapted you lower the amount of fat you’re eating and your body can eat your own fat LOL like that Krispy Kreme donut from 5 years ago. Enjoy the ride

(Karen) #15

Welcome! My N=1 is such a moving target. I starting high fat. Not sure but I might need to shift more carnivore. Weight is just stuck and I’m noticing more ketones. Luckily there’s a supportive subset that does this.

You may have noticed the lack of warfare here. We are all just trying to get healthy.

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #16

There are not many hard fast rules in the LCHF community. I have three hard fast rules that I think are universal, but I have known folks who break them and do fine.

Minimize sugar in all forms
Minimize refined flour
Minimize omega 6 PUFAs from Vegetable and seed oils.

Rule three, is perhaps the least important, for weight loss. And that’s kind of key. People keto for different reasons and from different starting points. How you keto, what is the right version, is driven entirely by your goals and your circumstance. If you have a brain tumor, your keto will be much stricter and involve a higher level of food quality than someone who wants to lose weight. If you are less affluent, it may involve lower cost products and the food quality piece may never come.

There are as many ways to do LCHF as there are LCHF dieters. Start with you end goals in mind, and it becomes clearer.

Personally, I am in a higher protein camp, but I am here for weight loss, muscle gain, and overall health improvement and was barely prediabetic at the start.

(Brian) #17

I kinda think most of us that are still losing weight are in that category, Karen. We like to think that once we figure out N=1 in the beginning that it’ll be our N=1 forever. Wish it were that easy. :slight_smile:

Thankful for a bunch of good people here that are good company while I share the journey to better health! And hey, if we were all the same, wouldn’t it be a lot more boring? LOL!

(Banting & Yudkin & Atkins & Eadeses & Cordain & Taubes & Volek & Naiman & Bikman ) #18

Exactly. Your goal can be a moving target. I find it helpful to add a goal sometimes or return to the original goal.

Food quality is a worthwhile addition, imo, that most folks don’t consider at the start.

(Tim W) #19

Lots of good stuff here.

I agree with IceNine in that there are more and more keto sub-groups forming on a regular basis. For example, the carnivore keto is BIG right now, and nothing wrong with it, if that’s how those folks function the best, ok.

What you are describing is the tribalism that forms on facebook and other sources, it’s very similar to religious fervor etc, where folks think (as someone else said in this post) that THEIR way is the ONLY way.

You won’t find much of that on this forum. Yes, folks have a point of view that they’ll defend, often with science/studies/literature to back them up, but they usually do it in a respectful way, this is a very receptive community.

Also already said BUT, how you do keto is YOUR business and those who would question your methods of achieving your goals, piss on em…

One of the reasons you see the divisions is because different things work for different folks at different times.

For example, Carl and Richard have gotten more into fasting over the last several months (from what I can tell from the podcasts) and it seems to be working well for them, if they are not losing weight, they are feeling good doing it (amazing how not eating can make you feel better than eating…).

I personally started my journey with fasting, but I would not argue that that’s the path for everyone. When I moved into fasting, I didn’t go on all the forums arguing that keto was better than fasting, it’s complimentary.

For me, that’s the bottom line, a lot of this stuff is complimentary, it’s not wrong or right, it’s simply a methodology, use the right one that works for your, for where you are at on this journey.

Good luck and welcome to the forums!

(Bunny) #20

Butter chuggers sound interesting, I would probably join that tribe as we must dip spear tips in butter before hunting!