HOW TO: help us moderate the Ketogenic Forums

(Richard Morris) #1

Forum Admins don’t delete people or posts on the ketogenic forums.

Users delete people and posts.

That’s your role as users to flag things you think are off topic, or offensive.

  • If 1 person flags a post, nothing happens to the post … admins all get a notification to look into why the post was flagged, and either;

    • agree with the flag in which case
      • it is hidden
      • the person who made the post LOSES a little trust, and gets an official warning
      • the person who raised the flag GAINS a little trust
    • disagree with the.flag in which case
      • the person who raised the flag loses a little trust.
    • defer the decision - ie: do nothing

  • If 4 people flag a post before an admin has had a chance to look into it

    • The forum itself hides the post and now it’s up to an admin to bring the post back by disagreeing with 4 people who flagged it or keep it hidden by agreeing with the flag.

If you lose enough trust you will lose features. If you get related back to level 0 then only 1 flag will be sufficient for the system to immediately hide your post…

We don’t use our admin powers to remove people or posts, we trust the system and our users to do that for us. All we do is agree with flags or disagree with flags. Unless someone is intimidating people (or otherwise acting illegally) in which case we will suspend them and hold them accountable.

Protein in grams and protein in ounces
#2

What do you mean by off topic. You mean off topic of the site, or of the category?

(Carol Hawkins) #3

Probably stuff like selling sunglasses or whatnot (spam)

(G. Andrew Duthie) #4

If something is on-topic for the forum, but say, in the wrong category, then admins or mods with sufficient trust level can move the post to the correct category. If a reply is off-topic for the current thread, it too (and any replies) can be moved to a new (or existing) thread in the correct category.

But if something is off-topic entirely, or is a personal attack, etc., those can and should be flagged.

As for those selling stuff that’s not related to keto, I’d flag those for deletion. Selling stuff related to keto can be moved to the SPAM category instead.

Make sense?

#5

How do I quit the forum and delete account?

#6

Question: how do y’all want us to handle OPINIONS (especially those without scientific backing) being posted to come across as FACTS? I have tried to ignore them, but, honestly, in the last few months I have seen more and more of this. I admit I’m really aggravated by this. It’s beginning to be a bit too “Facebook-y” because there’s so much of it going on now.

I admit, also, that I was “raised,” so to speak, on the concept of message boards over at the Straight Dope. Have been part of that community, first as a lurker, since 1995. For anyone not familiar with that mb, they set the standard across the internet for mb behavior, for shouting “cite???” whenever someone posts a questionable fact, for setting up clear and understandable rules (like “don’t be a jerk”) and set the gold standard for moderation/administration. They tend to be fact-focused and kinda science-y in their more fact-focused fora, too, just like here. So I guess I come here with similar expectations.

I felt comfortable enough with one poster today to request a cite for what he was saying without fearing he would holler about it (after all, aren’t we science-focused here? I could be wrong. He might holler. I hope not. I don’t think I was rude.) But I haven’t seen a response from him yet, so I don’t know what’s going to happen.

I remember @Capnbob starting a thread a few months ago about people posting the same question over and over without searching first. I totally and completely agree with him, including down to the frustration with it.

I believe that the members of a mb establish the culture. I don’t want this mb to turn into Facebook 2.0, where “I heard that…” or “I read somewhere…” or, God help us, “They say that…”. I WANT to be able to ask for cites no matter who posts. I WANT to be able to say “did you search the forum before you posted?” And I WANT to be able to say “don’t ask us to do your homework for you” to those who come in and start asking questions and demanding things before they have done the first resource-reading. And I WANT to be able to do these things without being accused of attacking (I would NEVER attack anyone!) or junior-modding (modding is y’all’s role.) Guess my frustration is a little obvious. I don’t think the mods and admins want to see multiple flags a day because of opinions-as-facts or things like that. I know they are volunteers and their time is valuable!

I really like the science and the focus on real information that I see here (even though I don’t see it as much anymore.) But with some of the things that have been happening lately, I have to admit I really don’t post much anymore, and sometimes I don’t even come here for days at a time. It’s sad.

I guess I’m really hoping for some guidance from Richard and @carl (I didn’t @ Richard because of his family situation.). I know that it’s your mb, guys, that y’all started it and it belongs to you, and that you could just tell me not to let the door hit me in the butt on my way out, but I’m hoping you won’t do that.

At first I loved it here. I just want to be able to continue to love it here.

Thanks so much for reading this and considering my concerns.

(Rob) #7

Trust me, I feel your pain. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

The one thing I would say is the longer I hang out here and the more I read about the absurd diversity of real life experience, the more I realize that there is far from enough hard science to address many concerns from newbs and more interestingly from experienced ketonauts.
I am even caught up between the “we are all snowflakes” and “biological mechanics don’t vary for most people” positions. The problem is that probably both are substantively true since the specific metabolic state of a person mediates those mechanics so widely that we become snowflakes. That said, knowing someone’s metabolic state (unlikely in real life, hence all the estimating someone’s situation with proxy markers) would allow for much more consistent advice. I think many times when something doesn’t work for someone it isn’t that they are a unique engine, just that they are in a different starting position e.g. waiting for IR to reduce with time and keto. The same advice may work radically differently in the same person 3 months apart. At those 2 times, there are different “facts” for the same person. That brings us to your main point (I think) that anecdote is often quoted as fact. “I upped my fat and lost weight”, “I can only lose weight by cutting fat” will both be true for different people, but quite possibly the same person at different stages of their keto evolution. Thus opinions ARE facts for many with respect to what worked for them. Obviously crackpot stuff isn’t valid but you know how much vegan-biased science there is to prove the opposite of what keto believes. Policing that all is probably a fools errand or requires Chinese levels of censorship :scream:

Given that people generally lack patience, and always want to be moving forward (even if their body doesn’t want to), the delivery of contrary anecdote as “fact” just stokes the fire but at least gives people something to do (both stating and trying) :grin:. I personally believe that a vaguely healthy metabolism knows what to do with excess fat calories so that if you over-eat, it invokes several mechanisms to use or bypass them. I believe that people who tell me that they can only lose by cutting calories either have specifically deranged metabolisms e.g. crashed BMRs etc. (other derangements can still manage excess fat IMO), or haven’t really tried for fear of fat. However this is just my opinion since there is utterly inadequate research to make my case definitively and we all know that restricting (fat) calories drops weight until it doesn’t. Show me the science leaves us with a pretty restricted set of options since Keto in practice is primarily evidence rather than science based. As we know, science says why it should work not really how it will work for you.

Just a minor example of the SMTS conundrum - Professor Roy Taylor of Newcastle University in the UK who has successfully reversed T2D in a large clinical trial by starving his patients for 2-3 months (800kcal) and then controlling their intake for the rest of a year has had fantastic results (basically low-cal keto or maybe nearer to a PSMF). So far so good… BUT on UK TV last night he was quoted as saying that he believes the visceral fat content in both the liver and the pancreas is what CAUSES T2D and that crash dieting to remove this fat in the organs is what reverses the T2D. I’d never heard that but I’m sure he has the correlative data to “prove” it. He’s not convincing me that organ fat content is more than another symptom of chronic hyperinsulinemia/inflammation but it’s definitely science! :grin:

The most important thing for me has been to not sweat the endless anecdote since even the stuff I don’t agree with will probably work for someone given their state. If I really object, I’ll add an alternative piece of advice and let the argument commence :crazy_face:

(icky) #8

I’ve been finding it confusing that people are being told to do certain things as if they are fact.

Then, later it turns out “Oh, that comment is only meant for people just starting” or “Oh, that’s only for people losing tons of water weight” or “Oh that only applies if such and such”

I’m finding the generalisations frustrating.

I totally agree with this. A big YES to n=1.

But also a big YES to basic biological mechanics.

While there is stuff we will NEVER fully understand because of the amazing complexity - as you say @Capnbob one person is different while getting into ketosis, then fat adapting, then losing water weight, then losing fat and then in maintenance, let alone how different people are different again… I would appreciate more of an effort at stuff being nuanced.

At the moment it feels like everyone is just muddling through with random semi-helpful comments.

I’m 2 months into Keto and my snowflake issues are that I’m TOFI and have thyroid issues and don’t need/ tolerate additional salt/ electrolytes and prefer fasting and yada yada yada.

I’ve found some of the advice here helpful, but also so much of it so confusing that I’ve had to work out much of my Keto journey for myself. Not that there’s anything wrong with working out your own journey, but it seems a bit hit and miss and when I read that the first big Dogma of the Forum is “show me the science” I was kind of like “Ummmm, I guess I have a different definition of science then”.as regards the advice being bandied about.

I understand @Virginia 's frustration about newbies asking the same basic questions, although as someone who started out 2 months ago, I do still remember very well that the first two or three weeks are SUCH a steep learning curve, with so many body chemistry changes and diet changes going on, that even if you do read a lot - you can’t read to find answers as fast as the questions are arising and even if you do read THAT much, then you’re often still confused at first and it’s a big benefit in those initial confusing weeks to just be allowed to ASK.

(icky) #9

Oh, this might also be an opportunity to reactivate an idea of @Capnbob 's that I read recently and found very helpful.

He suggested that a “badge” or something could be created for people who are TOFI or doing Keto for non-weight-loss reasons.

Being in that category myself, I’d have found it VERY helpful not to be receiving random advice actually meant for things like “big amounts of water weight loss” only to find out much later that that wasn’t applicable.

Maybe by creating a system where there are badges for things like DT1, DT2, Insulin resistant, TOFI, whatever… could help everyone provide more appropriate/ scientific advice?

(icky) #10

Maybe there could also be a rule like for the first 3 weeks you MUST post in the “newbie” section. And if you don’t, you’ll be reminded to go and post there.

And I think gentle-ish reminders to use the search funtion are okay!

I had a very weird Dr’s appt yesterday where he was very unhappy with my thyroid levels and gave me a new med that lots of people have trouble with. I reasearched online for 3 hours found a link to low carb diets being mentioned heaps and came and wrote a thread about it here.

Only AFTERWARDS did I realise there’s a thyroid section on the forum here (d’oh) and that there were even some other posts about the T3 / rT3 topic.

Sometimes the evolution of an idea that you have about medical stuff is such that you ask a question, only to realise later that yup, others have gone through it, there’s a name for it, etc.

So the (non-snarky) reminder “Hey, have you used the search function for this issue yet? If so, what results did you find?” is fine and helpful IMO.

(icky) #11

I wonder if it’s also due to the FORMAT of the forums?

In all the other forums I’ve been in over the years, bascially there are categories and everyone goes to the category they like and read there.
Only the newest post of each category is visible on the first page.

This forum’s format where ALL new posts are displayed, in the order of being written/ repsonded to means that everyone is kind of wading through everything and that everything also attracts random comments.

I’d say there are benefits and drawbacks to this fomat. It certainly has a lively feel and you can see that there is stuff going on, at a glance.

A forum can get a bit slow and tedious and silent, if everyone’s always just looking into the sub-forum sections they are interested in.

But this format where all topics pop up new every few minutes might be what is contributing to messier/ shallower/ more circular conversations?

(Rob) #12

Agreed but again, people aren’t great at nuance, especially when one thing has unequivocally worked for them. I think one of the greatest powers of any good forum but this one in particular (where there is probably not one single right answer in most cases - unlike many other subject areas) is the wisdom of the crowd. It would be great to get the best answer from an expert every time but that won’t happen except in some niche categories like cholesterol where there are (some) more definitive answers. Even being a keto biochemist doesn’t make you an expert in each individual’s situation and best path. In most cases, there are multiple, sometime conflicting answers but often a weight one way or the other, or at least a most convincing answer(s) relevant to the asker’s situation. It is up to the individual to decide.

It’s almost impossible to be a real expert in such an emerging field as keto no matter how smart you are… but collectively I think this place is pretty genius!! :exploding_head::exploding_head:

(icky) #13

Absolutely!

What I meant by “nuanced” was not that everyone should suddenly become an expert :blush:

What I meant was to be more “careful” in giving advice i.e. “This is what worked amazingly for me, you might want to try it, others have said it helps too, see how you go.” as opposed to “This is fact, this is what you do, do it, it will help.”

So not necessarily more expertise, but more of an awareness of one’s lack of expertise - i.e. that we are all guessing and sometimes the odds are higher and sometimes lower and that it’s good not to proclaim things as fact.

(Does that clarify what I meant?)

(Ron) #14

IMHO - Everyone has personal preferences and because of this you are going to find likes and dislikes with any venue that includes open participation. I have been on many forums and find this to be one of the friendliest and respectful forums I have participated in. Yes there are things that don’t fit my preferred criteria but understand the vastly diverse situations that come to this site, so try to keep an open mind and non-critical attitude. I also realize that a lot of advice given is from result of many previous successes to solve many different situations. Having said that, I also get that these advises may not work for everyone but are still offered as response to the masses and it will always be up to the individual to find their n=1. Since most of the advice given is to newbie’s, it is sensible to me in understanding generalization. There is not a systematic diagram to success that fits everyone even tough there will be those that want and are looking for one. It is refreshing to participate in a forum that overall has respect for it’s community old and new and welcomes all with open arms. It often comes apparent (which can be hard on the net) that patience, refrain, and suppression are exposed in posts that show character I applaud.

I also appreciate the freedoms to suggest possible direction to improvement of situations and not being critiqued for my attempts and being able to voice opinions with the confidence they will be respected as personal opinion ( this post) and discussed accordingly if one chooses. I have never been on a forum as respectful and the reason I participate.:bearded_person:

#15

And, I’d suggest a pivoting of the aforementioned assumption that demanding citations is viable or discourse-enhancing in certain non-specialist/non-academic settings. Also, a nice request is different than a demand, esp in digital text.

I’ve generally dismissed citation demands in the public digital social media space (which I avoid these days for the most part) - being that I expect people to use their own brainz and I don’t provide free research services - my response is “google it”. I respond similarly in mb’s and forums. If someone is truly interested, I’ve given them good leads and specs for their own research.

Some days if I have a lot of headspace/time/energy I might be generous and post a link or two, but it’s really NMJ considering the world wide web and the ready availability of many journal articles and reputable sources on both ancient and modern sciences - and the constant fact that one must do one’s own research, as a chunk of modern research is biased towards max profits by multinational corporations rather than cost-effective sustainable solutions for the most vulnerable and marginalized in the global economy.

Reminds me of Dr. Fungs recent interview where he spoke out about the forces that fund and manipulate and profit off if what is thought of as medical research, with little care for actual public health & healing.

(Richard Morris) #16

I think asking people for citations for any assertions is a good thing … at best it may turn up interesting studies, and at worse it will allow people to be more specific about which of their statements has an evidence basis, and what kind of evidence basis, and which are intuitions.

There is nothing I think wrong with intuiting a synthesis as long as you highlight that. eg: Given this study, and this study … I think that could imply this hypothesis.