Honey is essentially pure sugar. Why do some people think that it has some sort of magical ability? It is sugar


(Jane) #101

Just curious since you are so passionate on the subject of no sugar/honey. Ever.

What is the difference between honey and tomatoes in chili 3-4 times a year? Why aren’t tomatoes - never ?


tomates if you want in some ‘condiment spice’ with some burger is MEAT ya know.

You are putting some condiment small amt of taste from plants into a MEAT meal. You balance that taste you desire ‘being a relaxed carnivore’ allowing that tiny bit of taste to keep you on plan, make your food what you want for taste as you need it to keep eating your meat and being ok on it…so that small amt of ‘condiment’ type fluff is what can help many change over.

But if you put a tablespoon of full sugar into, say tea, you are opting for dead on straight sugar shot. NO meat with it. No food with it to make it anything than what it is…pure sugar ingestion.

So how meat is combined with a ‘tad of taste’ one might need to changeover into this meal is just that…a walk forward…and most if not all carnivores will drop all spices and herbs down the road cause our tastes change and we just don’t want them…but when we start, newer carnivores sometimes would easily take some chili taste to make them happy eating that burger meat.

Down the line most carnivores won’t even consider eating chili anymore cause their healing and tastes and bodies have changed and it becomes a ‘don’t require it anymore’ type issue.

So it is ‘what you combine with big meat meals’ for an extreme small tad of taste with that meat…vs. just sucking down pure sugar for no reason ya know.

For me starting I l loved a little garlic on my steaks. I put 1/4 teaspoon fresh minced garlic over my big azz steak and loved it cause I swore I could never live wihtout it LOL…about .25g carbs and it was a plant of course LOL but I required that ‘to make it further’ down the line on this plan…hence ‘relaxed carnivore allowing some small condiment to a meal’ but I would never go directly at a sugar option of course…and pretty fast I despised garlic. It got so sweet tasting, ruined my steaks and it is gone gone gone now never to be eaten again. So what little we allow, not pure sugar form, can help us move way forward but if one jumps on keeping something like honey, or a very big sugar loaded BBQ spice rub or sauce in their life, they can’t ever drop the sugar addiction and goes against truly what this elimination plan is about…we all walk it but what work and thought you put into it truly is the key to success.

Carnivore option, shrimp with some old bay and butter. Old bay is spice but trace 0 carbs. A carnivore would never choose, say teriyaki or orange glaze that is a slurry of pure sugar junk over your shrimp…at some point being smart about what is a sugar load over your meat and what is not comes into play…and only that person truly can put themselves accountable for what ‘condiments’ or sauces they use…and if one picks the teryiaki or sugar glaze stuff, one will have issues holding plan and moving forward (well most of us carnivores who make it long term, we are hear for big sugar reasons :))

Plus many of us eat ribs out…rib rubs have some sugar in them…but in the end your rack of ribs is your meal. Your rub is just there and could be detrimental to you and you know not to eat it, or you are one who at that moment on plan finds eating that tiny bit of spiced herb rub on your ribs is ok and your rib meat is the key factor. You ate a ton of meat. You didn’t just eat the rub and nothing else.

It is no sugar for just the sake of eating sugar ya know.

A relaxed carnivore will thru a personal level use some spice/herbs/possible smidge of sugar in that combo ON MEAT for taste but if you are slathering honey on meat it shows one thing…you can’t give up sugar ya know LOL 1 tablespoon of honey is around 16-20g and what plan is that? keto or very low carb LOL so there are ‘condiment’ taste options a carnivore will use and never go for a straight sugar condiment shot on their meats and this is how we change. We know to keep any condiment in a very small window of an extreme low sugar mode. And condiments vary…your small chili a few times a year will be something another carnivore can not eat…so…

We all walk this carnivore walk when we start…what will you personally allow and do well on to make it work for you to continue this plan long term and learn truths about yourself…eating a tablespoon of honey in your drink and not paired with food is not the right way ever to move forward when the entire basis of carnivore is elimination of sugar for the sake of eating sugar.

You eat a big meat meal. You ‘shake a smidge’ of taste on it. You got the meat protein, fatty great of it to easily balanced off the taste you needed to be happy as you get further down the line on carnivore.

It is not ever an easy plan to come into to :slight_smile: Most must have some ‘taste’ when we start so that bit of taste ON MEAT is one thing, sucking down a teaspoon of sugar, direct sugar on meat is not what this plan is about…we have to drop that sugar addiction full on and if we do some tomatoe paste in some chili mix and eat the meat, then the meat is the key factor and the taste kept you on plan and in full truth, how we come into carnivore is key…keep sugar for the sake of sugar and won’t give it up or are some spices mixed with herbs and a tad of tomatoe sauce in a big bowl of chili meat the same meal as just spooning sugar over something…they aren’t the same to your body in full truth and of course, lets talk mind sugar addiction too :slight_smile:

There truly is a fine line of progression…as chatted about with thousands of carnivores on forums…how the simplest way forward when one starts is a key factor. It is proven thru experiences out there and if one wants carnivore, then the ‘sugar eating’ has to be very rare, very controlled but also there are shades of gray to step us into being all we can be on this plan. No sugar needed in life :slight_smile: and a ton of us carnivores are right there and thriving.

So everyone obviously can do their own thing. Success comes on this plan from ‘truly seeing big pictures’ thru how hard it is for many to handle this plan ya know.

Optimal as recommended, nothing. meat/seafood/fish and fowl. Done…not even dairy and of course this is strict and best way forward, but darn so many can’t handle it point blank, so that ‘relaxed carnivore’ step gives us a leg up into coming into this plan but how one controls what ‘one allows’ is key to future long term success. Honey will never be recommended on strict or relaxed carnivore ever.

Ok big chat on it LOL Hope that gives you more insight to how guidelines are trying to show us a way into carnivore to make the plan work.

(Jane) #103

Thanks for the explanation as I know you enjoy a bowl of chili from time to time. :slightly_smiling_face:

I think you are exaggerating the quantities a bit to make your point. A Tbl of honey in a cup of tea would gag most people. (not a tea drinker but when my husband used to add honey to his tea it was like 1/2 teaspoon). Or spooning sugar over meat. Nobody has mentioned those quantities.

But since you enjoy your chili, it is a “tad” of tomatoes. LOL. Unless you make a very dry chili it is more than a tad in my book, but I could be wrong since I don’t know how you make yours.


I think a tablespoon of honey is nothing in the sugar world…you are thinking from your new improved body keto world LOL how we progressed now vs. thinking of someone coming into carnivore from either SAD or a loose keto plan or a person struggling with even just a good low carb meal plan maybe?

Plus there is tomatoe sauce from a can we put in chili you can buy that is no sugar added. There is tons of tomatoe sauce cans that have a heck of alot more sugar than other brands so?

There are bbq rubs that are very low sugar options and there are very high sugar content options that can knock your socks off …this is where we need to read labels also on all products we choose to ‘condiment’ our meats.

There are those that will never be happy with 1/2 a teaspoon with tea-- so we can’t ever allow the sugar intake to ever be part of carnivore in full truth for the sake of sucking down just pure sugar for no reason. Remember the ol’ saying…I am one bite of french fries away from backsliding, I am one bite of a twinkie away from regaining it all, and for a carnivore, you can easily be 1/2 teaspoon away on full sugar honey it from failing the plan so?

Your sugar in extreme small form thru your research of ‘condiments you purchase’ must be the lowest form of ‘carbs’ on that label you can buy…then you only use ‘a tad’ for the smallest best taste you can do.

Remember the full on approach is no sugar on carnivore and if one ramps that up one will never accomplish this plan, in that IF THIS is where you need to be and if this is the plan that suits you best.

(Linda ) #105

But when saladino is talking about honey it’s indeed in table spoons he has two table spoons a day and this is every day… if it was a drop or two prob most would have said what ever .but ontop of that honey he says fruits too… and he is eating up towards 100grams of carbs a day…how is that keto let alone carnivore??
I still use spices but I actually try to find some that don’t use sugar…and often it’s only black pepper
I think if we are going to call somone out on eating off plan 3 or 4 times a year on chili and say that’s not carnivore then ok maybe not strict carnivore…but for most carnivores that one meal can cause so much discomfort gas pain bloating and diareah joint pain that you’ll often hear its just not worth it which is why it’s only 3 or. 4 times a year cos you often forget pain til the next time…


I tend to agree… I saw way more than that amount of sugar (that is even sweeter than honey as honey is only about 80% sugar) from people who drink their drinks sweet… But fine, not a cup, a big mug. I easily drink my tea from a 6dl one… 1 tablespoon of honey doesn’t make it very sweet, surely not for a normal person (they would probably need multiple ones… I drink my tea plain since decades except in rare cases when I want it with lemon. and optionally sweetened but that is super extreme, last time I needed a sore throat wanting insane amounts of warm liquid every day and I got super bored with plain tea and coffee).
When I ate honey, I could eat the tablespoon of honey all alone…

I am sure you get different answers from different people. If you are a strict carnivore? Both are out.
I am a tomato-loving one on/off carnivore-ish… Tiny amount is fine, dishes heavily depending on tomato… Carefully. I try to avoid that but if I am bored and eggs in purgatory or egg stew (with tomato as I modified it to be tomato-free, it’s bad enough it has a lot of onions! :smiley: my carnivore-ish egg stew portions are so very small!) are the only options for me to accept so I eat those or quit carnivore, well I eat them then. But it’s way more than some tiny thing on top of a boiled egg. It’s not “spice amount”.
IDK how strict I would be if I was carnivore. I like calling my woe carnivor-ish only, no matter how strictly I do as I tend to have some plant matter and wondering about amounts and “is it spice? is it condiment? is it more?” to label my woe correctly… Oh that’s not a chill thing, I rather call my woe very low-carb or carnivore-ish on most days and then I can eat whatever I fancy (with some modifications about amounts if I want something less than ideal and my other parts interfere to save my poor body that very very much wants super low plant matter especially carby ones but that’s the vast majority).

To me, condiments are the gray area for carnivore (totally fine for me as long as the amount is really tiny and it’s not something like sugary ketchup). But real tomatoes in a dish, that’s more. Of course, each to their own but tomato-y dishes are too much of a stretch to me.
If someone says there are carnivore, I would expect they don’t eat tomatoes if it’s not some lil condiment ingredient or a really tiny piece, maybe. Though if I eat the smallest real tomato (maybe not the smallest. I am very sure I had 1g ones in my garden this year… I bought a super tiny kind and it wanted to break some record I suppose) I immediately consider my day only carnivore-ish :slight_smile: But it’s my own strictness regarding my own woe and I am so fine with carnivore-ish, never want a stricter label (actually I don’t even want this, just energy, good health and other good things :D).

Chili is a mystery to me as we only made one - vegetarian - kind and it was ages ago. But yes, I think it must have very much tomato, normally at least. I made very low-carb onion soups (with green peas and carrots. I am the queen of ridiculous amounts) and tomato free egg stews so why couldn’t someone make low-tomato chili?

I guess honey may be a condiment too, mostly ingredient only for some marinade…? People do such things. But pure sugar and carnivore, they don’t mix IMO. Not even in tiny amounts on an otherwise carnivore food item. I don’t say it’s the Only Right Way to think but if someone says “honey is allowed!” instead of “honey isn’t carnivore but if you want one or two drops on your meat, fine”, I am definitely against that.

People often want to eat things they shouldn’t on their chosen woe or something else. Some people even does their best to find food to eat while FASTING. People are horrible :smiley:
I think we had some scandal about oats in paleo in my country… It was borderline allowed, I guess they thought it makes transition easier? I don’t know, my (mostly) paleo times came later and I wasn’t super interested about its local history. And of course, people started to use it galore. Fruit is allowed on paleo (though I realized paleo has different allowed items in different places) so people totally went to the “multiple bananas per day” route too. So the leading paleo person banned oats. Of course I couldn’t care less as I never followed anyway, it was obvious to me I don’t eat grains on low-carb if possible. I always disliked oats anyway :smiley:

It seems some people don’t get it. It’s easier for them to ban things completely.
But honey is almost pure sugar and not animal product so I consider its very much not carnivore-ness more clear.

Even if one just stays close to carnivore because their body prefers very few carbs and especially low sugar, it seems way more sensible not to eat pure sugar at all. It can trigger things. It keeps sweet things in our life. I always liked sweet things but it sounds better and probably easier without them. My default approach is “no sweetened desserts or drinks” (no one can take away my right to eat desserts so not no desserts if it’s me!).
Some tomato, even a bigger amount doesn’t trigger wanting sweets in me. A little honey might. It may be personal, everyone can choose what is best for them but I am sure many people are like me or even worse with it. Sweeteners don’t make me want sugar ever but they often make me want more sweet stuff, my ideal sweetness for sweets goes up a bit (just a hypothesis of mine)… I so don’t need that after my decades long very serious sweets addiction. I never ate very much of it but it was super frequent. End of meal? Sweets. I want to be FREE. And I am now. Tomatoes can’t ruin it but I wouldn’t start eating them in bigger amounts.

(Jane) #107

Ack. I haven’t read any of Saladino’s writings so wasn’t aware he was eating so much. NOT HEALTHY in my opinion.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #108

In my humble opinion, honey is best used to make mead and braggot. Eating it, not so much.

(Jane) #109

Whenever I finally get to harvest honey from my hives (not this year), I plan to do just that! I got 50 lbs from one hive one year when I lived in Houston and decided to learn to make mead. What a fun adventure!


They aren’t good hedonists… I never forget pain let alone such extreme reaction… I don’t forget light but stubborn stomachache (my most serious sugar poisoning. not fun but it was super rare) but I risk that sometimes, stupid compulsions… I often think that with a less sturdy(?) body I would be such a well behaved one :smiley: But I am fine with mine, thank you. It does give me nudges and act when I keep ignoring it for days. At least it was in the past, it gets more sensitive but well, I had time to train myself to want the good foods :smiley:
I have so good food without carbs too, why would I harm my poor body for some different nice taste? (Kinda theoretical as I never had a strict woe. I don’t often do hard things. But I would give up any food for no pain.)


I start to reply and never read the whole comment before finishing… Well now I did.

I didn’t even know tomato with added sugar exist, well okay of course it exists but I only saw pure tomato here. Maybe because I only use puree? (Okay we use it almost none nowadays, my poor high-carber SO dropped most not raw vegetables :smiley: It seems they weren’t important for him.)
I wrote what I wrote thinking about the sugar in the tomato itself. They are often very sweet. It’s not a huge amount but if it’s a dish that uses tomato to make the food moist and tastier… That can be a lot.
Especially for carnivore, it’s plant… But such a dish easily can be too carby for keto too, it depends.

(Laurie) #112

I make chili without tomato – no liquid at all. But I usually eat alone and only have to please myself. When I was at my sister’s, I made some nice curried ground beef. My sister was disappointed that it didn’t have the “sauce” she was expecting.

(I have another version of chili that is just beef and Pace’s Picante Sauce, but that’s a different meal.)


We don’t eat chili these years. And curry is very heavily vegetable based in this household (and I don’t like it much anymore, well there is a correlation, I lost interest in most vegetables but the spice never was my favorite either. interesting, it was fun here and there but I barely use spices now and that should be something better) but now we use some meat in it too unlike in the past… I wondered about simple curried meat before but it’s nothing like the curry I am used to. So I just let curry leave my life, I don’t miss it at all. Maybe when my SO makes it (as he still loves it), I will eat a tiny amount with my meat, almost as a condiment. I did it with another originally vegetarian dish that now has meat (but I keep the eggs too. of course I do. the traditional dish rarely has eggs but Mom made it with eggs and I rather skip all the vegetables than the eggs :D), a very small portion was a perfect condiment for my meat. I can eat my meat alone just fine but this variety once in a blue moon, why not? And that dish has tomatoes and onions, the miraculous vegetables keeping my interest even if it dropped drastically. They are still nice as flavoring. So tasty, a little goes a long way. And they both are too sweet to eat in bigger amounts anyway (tomatoes not always).

If I get bored of my precious roasts, I just make a stew (onions and paprika, tomato is optional but I never used any in it. except the egg stew, that’s special). A little sauce is nice. But if I don’t have sauce, fat in my meat does the trick. I am very simple if it’s about my staple meat.

Is it offtopic if we talk about meat dishes here and NOT about honey anymore? :upside_down_face:


You can expect all these internet/youtube “gurus” to change what they’re eating.

It’s a money thing. They’ll get a following doing something. Their channels grow. When the growth slows down, they need a new thing, then they add a food, change the diet completely, or whatever. Anything to make what they’re preaching more inclusive and easier to follow, or adhere to.

They don’t believe in what they’re telling you. It’s a way to make money, like the snake oil selling on public square of the old days. Look for yourself. They all sell supplements… I’ll never get why everybody is so pissed at big pharma, but ok with big supplement…

Just don’t give this people a following. You can do your own reading.

The honey thing is just this. First they tell you won’t have cravings with carnivore. People follow. But they still have cravings. Before you lose your followers, you say, wait! Honey is fine! Everybody breathes! Elation!

When honey gets old, a new change is necessary. Don’t go away! Fruit is also just fine!

And followers… follow.


@islandlight. that’s me too. I can make regular old chili for family and all I required was some chili spice sprinkled over burger meat and I ‘got the taste’ without the extra crap I didn’t want.

Plus guys…condiments for taste is just that…a taste. That little change in taste that suits us at what time on plan and usually longer you go on carnivore, the more you don’t want those spices/herbs. Most of us truly drop all that but since carnivore is a very hard plan to handle when starting, those little condiment tastes can be what works for you to keep one on plan and gets you to become a long term carnivore.

One can’t think ‘eating food’ ya know…you have to whittle it down to ‘a smidge of taste’ to get what is wanted, just a small taste change. So you kinda need to think no chili to eat as an actual meal, but sprinkle a tad of chili mix onto some chicken or burger and done deal. But of course never saying anyone is ever perfect on any eating plan all the time :slight_smile: so if one does incorporate a little of this or that in their lives it is personal choices. They get their personal reactions, their personal issues from walking a bit too far ‘from carnivore guidelines’ of this plan then that is just what it is for that person. There are no carnivore police in the real world LOL

There is tho big commitment for carnivore that has to be applied.

Carnivore is an elimination plan. The whole crux of it and if you don’t eliminate then you get almost nothing from what this plan is really trying to show you about your personal health truths.

(Sama Hoole) #116

Nothing against the idea of adding honey, but I don’t see what specifically it brings to the table. Personally, I’d rather add a low-toxicity starch if I wanted carbs, because then it would be going straight to muscle glycogen, rather than the liver.

In any case, Saladino needs to be taken with a chunk of salt. He’s dogmatic about whatever he believes at that point in time.


Oh my, so they aren’t even similar? Food is so complicated.
I “prefer” starches because my body handles them LOADS better than sugar.
But once I managed to get carb poisoned from some rice, it was an extreme case as it wasn’t even soooo much. Normally it’s fine. I have my odd off days so I know.
Too pure sugar (like very sweet fruits or honey) - there is no safe amount for that for me, at least eating it alone. A little starch never did anything noticeably bad to me.
So if I really had to change between a slice of “normal” bread and a teaspoon of honey (I would try to choose neither quite stubbornly, I always hate to choose between 2 bad. though I like both, kind of. the bread only if I made it and put enough eggs into it and little enough starches… and I like the flavors of honey but dislike the sugar part), I would choose the first as I want to feel right in the next minutes too.

If I eat my little sugar followed by fatty protein, it feels fine. That’s how I eat fruits when it’s more than tiny. I have a fruit garden, no one can expect me to ignore it, too bad I rapidly lose interest :smiley: So I enjoy my fruits until I still can :smiley: Sorry if I shocked anyone with my horrible attitude :smiley: I have no regrets, my amounts are tiny, I have a healthy enough body that can handle it and good fruits are among the tastiest things, the best ones goes over my fatty pork roast and it’s a huge feat! (But never could go over proper home-raised fatty pork roast and especially sausages. That is the highest food joy imaginable to me. I lived through my vegetarian years knowing this and staying a hedonist because I don’t need to eat the tastiest things, I only need to eat food that my body needs and which are at least 9/10 at every meal. with very few exceptions. as many plants are extremely tasty and I had loads of animal food as well, it was easy)

I wondered about blurring things out but here, in the honey topic…? Nope.

But sorry for the tangents. Maybe I shouldn’t come when I got an emotional hit and my body urges me to focus on the joys of life. But I probably do these anyway.

(Bob M) #118

Yeah, I think if you want carbs, there are way better carbs than honey. Tomatoes, for instance. That’s what I had today for lunch, an heirloom tomato from the local farm.

Fruit isn’t bad this way, as since plants want these to be eaten, they tend to have much fewer antinutrients.

I don’t eat much fruit, though, as it tends to trigger me. A few strawberries lead to a lot of them.

(Polly) #119

I also had tomatoes with my lunch, fried in the fat which came out of my bacon and served with scrambled eggs and the aforementioned bacon. Delicious!

(Edith) #120

The great thing about this forum is that it really shows how different we all are. A handful of berries does not make me want more and more. Starchy things like potatoes, tortilla chips, that’s another matter. Okay, potatoes that have been air fried with salt and bacon fat make me eat too many of them. If I ate a plain boiled or baked potato without fat or salt, I would probably not go crazy. Lol.