Honey is essentially pure sugar. Why do some people think that it has some sort of magical ability? It is sugar


(Linda ) #81

You mentioned fresh produce to me that’s veges😀…
DR Westman is a ketogenic weight specialist out of Duke he been doing it for 20 odd years and he states alot of his patients eat burger king or Macdonalds and do extremely well on it so he cautions every one to not make a ketogenic diet unreachable for ppl because they won’t or can’t stick to it…he has helped thousands of patients and continues to do so.



so what is your big point about our carnivore plan? While honey we get will absolutely appeal to many for their own reasons and use on plan, we don’t do it LOL so?

we first off are not based as ‘a ketogenic diet’ which alot of that is deemed as ‘a plan’ as in Keto plan etc. Yes we are ketogenic but we don’t follow any ‘forms of putting us in a ketosis level every day’ plan so that is mute in a way. Carnivore is not what you relate it to be.

Default carnivore…so you use it when needed and it suits you. Wonderful but you won’t be us who requires this plan full on and it is cool you can walk backwards off this plan. Again no experience thru your personal life about carnivore and what other’s require so… 100% no carnivore will never be carnivore if you dump back into plant eating or sugar consumption and as much as it is a big part of your personal plan, you can’t go here with us that do it full on and make comments to say it is cool to jump between eating plants/sugar/grains and more so? That is you, leave us to what we require :slight_smile:

It is cool you are listening in that sugar is no on carnivore. So after that does one still promote honey is on carnivore as a plan? I again don’t see your personal activity on what it takes for you to be any chat about what carnivore plan is about.

It is wonderful you are doing you with ‘carnivore plan’ being a few days in your week to make ya feel best you can :slight_smile: That is a good thing!

but don’t say your plan as you see fit to eat sugar or whatever suits us carnivores on a real carnivore guideline plan we NEED! That is all I am saying here.

and also think where do bees get their nectar, from polluted plants and while probably negibile on pesticide issues in that honey…yes it is ALL a real spider web of what we now do to plant matter as food vs. your honey debate on what is really in it, alot of bees were dying and we lost many insects thru it all so? Your honey is corrupted in some way from this life on this planet now.

(Old Baconian) #83

This is true of most prominent carnivores. They eat only meat, not because they hate vegetables, but because a meat-only diet is the diet on which they are the healthiest. I am thinking of Amber O’Hearn and Georgia Ede, in particular, who are quite willing to talk about the consequences they experience from eating plants and why they have to avoid them.

(Old Baconian) #84

Why would you, if you don’t have to? One adheres to whatever works in one’s own circumstances.

As I mentioned in another post, many people eating a carnivore diet do so because they react badly to plant foods, in ways that make life very difficult for them. It’s very similar to how an alcoholic finds avoiding alcohol entirely to be a better way of life than trying to consume even small quantities of alcohol. It just works better for such a person.

Now, the reason that carnivore eating works is that there are no known sugar- or carbohydrate-deficiency diseases, whereas there are definitely problems with protein or fat deficiency. So, we could not eat a protein- or fat-free diet without serious consequences to our health, but can happily survive without any dietary carbohydrate whatsoever. True, the body does require some small quantity of serum glucose for survival, but it is not necessary to eat glucose (i.e., carbohydrate), since the liver manufactures the amount needed from amino acids (and can also make it from fatty acids).


yea it is like telling someone with a nut allergy that can kill them that ‘only walnuts’ are ok, or ‘only peanuts will be fine’ or 'go eat some brazil nuts, bet ya live thru it maybe? LOL

come on here HAHA

just jawing on it tho, having a good time on this thread but now I must be out in that I might go ‘too deep’ trying to teach others what it is for another person who is not you and all will be fine if ‘you just do what I do’ type thinking :slight_smile: :slight_smile:


Long-term (5, 10 20 years) not so sure. What about the accumulation of the 4-HNE molecule?


Absolutely. Last year, I really wanted to road test carnivore so was super strict. The results in terms of body composition, and the mental fortitude from being so dedicated, was very rewarding. Now, I’ll eat a small side salad with my steak when dining out. Or eat a handful of grapes with my roast chicken on a picnic, etc, without any neurosis. :wink:

(Old Baconian) #88

What about it?

Firstly, lowering carb intake below your insulin threshold will generate β-hydroxybutyrate (one of the three ketone bodies the liver produces), and that β-hydroxybutyrate will deactivate a gene complex that insulin turned on, a complex that disables our endogenous defences against oxidative stress. In other words, the β-hydroxybutyrate generated by the liver during ketogenesis will reactivate our endogenous defences against oxidation. This is one of the reasons that oxidative stress is so much less of a concern on a low- or especially a zero-carb diet.

Second, lowering carb intake reduces the oxidative stress caused by glycosylation and advanced glycation end-products (AGE’s). So this is another reason that oxidative stress is much less of a concern on a low- or especially a zero-carb diet.

Third, every anthropologist can tell, simply from glancing at the health of the bones, whether a given archaeological dig was the site of a hunter-gatherer tribe or the site of an agricultural society. Hunter-gatherers are taller, have straighter bones, and show signs of fractures from accidents. Farmers are shorter, have tooth decay, and have frailer bones showing signs of stunting and other growth abnormalities.

It is pretty clear that the human race evolved eating primarily meat and very little carbohydrate. For that reason alone, it is not likely that 4-HNE from the little oxidative stress our ancestors experienced was a problem for them.

Fourth, the short average lifespan of primitive societies is largely the result of infectious disease, especially in childhood. The Plains Indians of the American west, for example, were notorious for the number of centenarians among them—until, that is, they adopted the white man’s diet of refined grains, oils, and sugar (which made them just as sick as it made us). So apparently, the long-term effects of a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet are pretty healthful, especially in comparison with the long-term effects of a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet, which pretty much seems to wreck nearly everyone’s health.

And lastly, 4-HNE is a marker of oxidative stress, not a cause. As with many things, action taken to affect a marker for a condition does not necessarily do anything whatsoever to ameliorate the underlying condition. Fixating on the marker to the exclusion of the condition it represents can do serious damage, not only to our scientific understanding, but also to the actual health of real people.


As I’ve stated many times before, one of the biggest issues in reference to pretty much anything these days, is simply… ‘variation’. Whether it’s Keto, Carnivore, etc. Some seem to want to do these, but also want to keep some things on the table, hence, a variation of it. And to be honest, there’s not a whole lot wrong with that, especially if that variation helps someone in one way or the other and is better then the norm they were doing. But can cause issues when they try to somehow defend it as the same. It isn’t.

But it also causes folks to maybe think they need to make a stance to defend the way it’s supposed to be, more-so than just excepting it’s a variation, and wish them the best with ‘their’ version. Which sadly, just puts up even more barriers we don’t need. That said, yes, the Carnivore Diet is described as simply eating only meat and Animal products, excluding all other foods. Something I myself personally enjoy ‘a lot of the time’ because it’s just what I like the most, MEAT. But as some others have stated here, not all of the time. (For me personally) I don’t personally want to limit myself to thinking I will never eat this or that, etc. I also don’t see all plants as poison, bad, etc. though I know they can indeed cause some folks issues due to their general makeup, but not everyone. And I do enjoy some from time to time when I decide to. (For the record, I also don’t see sugar as the ‘Big Bad Guy’ that it is so often portrayed in the LC world.) Though I don’t partake and haven’t in some time, the use of sugar, as with most things, it’s usually our over-abusive nature that makes it bad. My personal thinking is that sugar probably isn’t all un-healthy in itself, but when eaten in excess, can and will cause numerous issues, too many to list. … But is it needed, NO. Are carbs themselves needed, again, NO. But neither is alcohol, cigarettes’, etc. And a lot of folks still do those things, even knowing that they are way more damaging then simply not eating carbs. So anyone wishing to be full blown Carnivore, well, I hope you don’t smoke or drink. :slight_smile:

Look, I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate here, or in anyway defend eating carbs in excess, smoking or anything else. I only mentioned those things just to let folks know where I stand, since I do chime in from time to time and don’t want to give anyone the wrong impression. … I’ve never been Carnivore full time for extremely long periods of time. But I’m usually 85% to 100% most meals, and sometimes do go 100% full time for stints here and there, like I am doing now. But I also don’t expect to get some of the benefits that are said to come from being Carnivore full time, with extended timeframes.

(Bob M) #90

Does anyone know WHY eating carbs like fruit or honey is supposed to “help” the thyroid?

Like @Digital_Dave, I still eat some vegetables, and even fruit sometimes (rarely). I’m also trying to go more nose-to-tail, and made pate today from chicken livers. Not bad. Have oysters in my drawer at work to provide a different meat.

And I personally have no problems with someone saying they feel better at a higher level of carbs.

(Old Baconian) #91

Nor do I. What I don’t like, however, is the implication that I will feel better at a higher level of carbs, too, because that is simply not true, or I’d never have embarked on a ketogenic diet in the first place. When you get right down to it, I rather like being able to climb stairs and use my hands without pain, even if it means giving up some foods that I crave.


I don’t wish that but I would NEVER smoke, it’s NOT hedonistic at all! And I do drink my 8 or 18 ml vodka or something here and there because I can and I really consider my amount tiny. Not every month. My body can handle this better than my grapes (it’s their season already! they are delicious! and horribly sugary. oh well, I am so, so happy I don’t live alone and only I need low-carb).

But too pure sugar, even in tiny amounts, may cause problems for some of us. Under certain circumstances, at least. But in general, I agree, small amounts should be fine for most people. We throw so many negative things to our body and it’s totally unavoidable - but it can handle it as it’s not too much and we keep it in a good shape.The problem is that most people eat huge amounts of the bad things (or good things they only need in small amounts).

(Old Baconian) #93

Again, I believe it all comes down to one’s reasons for eating this way. Someone dealing with depression or bipolar disorder is probably going to want to avoid alcohol, a central nervous system depressant, along with all the other plant-based foods that cause them trouble.

Whereas someone who can eat plant foods and drink alcohol without problems will probably not avoid them.

(Shelly C) #94

My friends/family: “Why don’t you eat honey. It’s good for you - it’s a good sugar.”
Me: “No sugar is good.”
My friends/family: “That doesn’t make sense.”
Me: No reply … Have always been told to keep quiet if I don’t have anything nice to say.

(Old Baconian) #95

People will also say something similar when a family member tries to get sober. We have to help the alcoholic remember that wine (or beer, or whatever) may be fine for that family member, just not for the alcoholic.


Yes ma’am, and that’s a good thing. I was just pointing out that sometimes people tend to forget it’s not just foods we chew or swallow, but any sort of ingestion.

Yeah Paul, unfortunately, I’ve known a few alcoholics in my years. Friends, but no family members that I can recall. … One friend I used to draw with all the time growing up, passed away from cirrhosis of the liver, and he was just 37. Sad… but that’s why I mentioned that sometimes it’s us that make some thing much worse than they are, when they are done in moderation. But for some, that can’t happen…

Nor I, whatever works for them. … For me, I still stay under 20g daily when I do partake in anything outside of meats themselves, but eating just meats does make things a whole lot easier at times.

(Jane) #97

I admire you for getting sober and staying sober. The father of my kids is an alcoholic and we would still be together if he could have kicked the bottle. Living with an alcoholic is hell.

OTOH… since I don’t have to live with him anymore we remained great friends.

(Linda ) #98

I can’t even imagine eating honey now to be honest about 5 /6months ago I went out to dinner and had mushrooms and onions on the side of my steak…they tasted so sweet almost like desert sweet I had to ask if they had added sugar to them nope just browned in butter… so if they were that sweet honey would prob be something that I would not enjoy…


I can only say I truly hope this is all about you and you are not saying anyone who adopts an eating plan that suits them and can not eat certain foods has this issue? I just don’t know you well :slight_smile: so I am not sure how to read into that statement…but that wink at the end makes me wonder how that content was meant to go across.

---------in general guys, I find the food pushers on some forums actually to be more annoying than family or any issue I had to walk thru to hit my best eating plan for me. It is amazing how someone who is doing an eating healthy lifestyle can be told they are wrong to someone doing the exact same thing just with other foods on an eating forum for all to do just that…find their best way forward, find what foods work against them and what works for them.

Honey is a useless item to carnivores. No sugar on plan and this is what suits carnivores. There is no more than that to be said on it. But if someone takes offense that a carnivore won’t eat honey then? wow…I don’t know…why post anything further on any of it? No carnivore is gonna control or truly change what another thinks about an eating plan like carnivore…we can only hope it is just accepted what is required on this plan for many of us. Us carnivores are very used to being told how to eat our plan by others LOL In one ear and out the other for me on that issue…I guess it is human nature to change another in some fashion? I don’t know. This little but great carnivore group on this forum isn’t gonna be running out and buying honey any time soon.

Sorry to disappoint anyone… I guess? :sunny:

ok, over and out


Yes, I got it. I just tend to bring myself into everything. And I find people’s thinking and behaviour odd too…

First I thought the family member is still a bit drunk and wants to get sober again… We actually have a saying and belief that if you have hangover, more alcohol goes good. Well, Hungary is an alcoholic country, we are among the top ones in alcohol consumption (that’s a guesswork as no one can possibly know the real numbers but still)… And saying NO to booze? Maybe worse than not eating the homemade cake of the hostess! If you want to belong, not drinking is problematic. And sadly, not everyone has their priorities right (health first. It’s so obvious to me. only certain principles are higher but they very rarely interfere). And people are super rude to force food or alcohol, I am very sensitive to that, it’s VERY wrong, dangerous and not respectful at all.

Onions are very sweet, I always tasted that but now I feel them even way sweeter… And butter has sugar too. It can caramelize… But onions are sweeter, butter has very little sugar.

I understand your logic but I don’t work like that. I may find onion in my meat dish too sweet (it’s never a problem at home as we use little and salt helps too) - but for a dessert, my expectations are different. I HATE anything sweeter than onion with my meat, I never understood this sugary marinades and eating sour cherries (with added sugar, of course despite it’s a sweet fruit, usually. some kinds aren’t) with meat (very popular here)… My savory food should be NOT sweet.
But I expect some sweetness from desserts and can handle very sweet things. Not the normal candy, that’s insane {And then I got carried away with normal sugar using in the modern world, hence the blur.} I struggle with the thought since a decade that people eat chocolate with 50% sugar. 50. mind=blown. my SO’s - high-carber half-living on desserts, a cake is perfect breakfast for him - chocolate has 12% xylitol but he hates added sugar and it changed him. but still, 50% for normal people… If they find biscuits with way less sugar perfectly sweet, why they need insane things like that… people even put sugar into every kind of fruits! including dried sweet fruits which are super sweet… But I ate sugar with a big spoon as a kid a few times so I shouldn’t say a word, actually. And I didn’t like sugar. I loved sweetness.
And amounts and what we eat things with matter. A drop of honey on some unsweetened cookie, I would be able to eat it, sure. It’s just kinda pointless… :smiley: I really loved proper honey in the past, I ate more honey than sugar on my last years of high-carb, I always found some very good stuff from a local beekeeper… But it’s sugar, I don’t need it and my body hates it and I can eat great low-carb stuff instead, win/win.

That type of people should be so very easy to ignore :smiley: I wouldn’t even try to understand them, too far from my thinking.
Some people so LOVE to tell others what to do and food is a popular topic…