Honey is essentially pure sugar. Why do some people think that it has some sort of magical ability? It is sugar

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(Edith) #61

Caffeine crept back into my life during the shutdown. I’m weaning myself off again to see if it makes a difference.

#62

caffeine, in general, when read about how it can harm really could hold some weight into the equations of how many fare thru their eating changes.

See I hate coffee. Never drank it but used tea for a short bit til real fast the tannins in tea gave me dry mouth, weirdo tongue numbness and throat got a small bit wonky, I dropped that stuff fast LOL

So maybe something as simple as caffeine kept in form cause be a big cause reaction for some?

#63

Probably the first thing to understand is that honey is a complete food, meaning it contains numerous biologically functional agents that all work together to create a unique whole. Across the board, honey seems to consistently do the opposite of sugar. For example, Where the osmolarity of sugar feeds cancer, honey inhibits it via the action of numerous phenolics such as chrysin, kaempferol, catechin, and many others. Many of the phenols in honey work synergistically with oligosaccharides and fructooligosaccharides present in honey to act as substrate for health-promoting bacteria like Bifidobacteria. Suffice to say the beneficial action of honey can not be explained, so much via reduction of the parts, but more to the synergy of the whole. All food has a duality. For example, too much water and you die, too little water and you die. The body never looks at food in isolation.

(Linda ) #64

On the honey subject i watched a you tube with Dr berry and Nesha last night he is going to reach out to Paul saladino and ask to have a friendly debate with him on the subject of why honey and fruits and sugars are not carnivore… could be one to watch out for

#65

“Probably the first thing to understand is that honey is a complete food, meaning it contains numerous biologically functional agents that all work together to create a unique whole. Across the board, honey seems to consistently do the opposite of sugar. For example, Where the osmolarity of sugar feeds cancer, honey inhibits it via the action of numerous phenolics such as chrysin, kaempferol, catechin, and many others. Many of the phenols in honey work synergistically with oligosaccharides and fructooligosaccharides present in honey to act as substrate for health-promoting bacteria like Bifidobacteria. Suffice to say the beneficial action of honey can not be explained, so much via reduction of the parts, but more to the synergy of the whole.” All food has a duality. For example, too much water and you die, too little water and you die. The body never looks at food in isolation.

#66

agreed with alot of what you said but thing is…carnivore plan is no sugar so if one is one carnivore plan we don’t want it :slight_smile: Never saying a person does not have the choice to go off plan, eat whatever they want on some general lc food groups that suit them personally, or adopt a plan like Keto or Paleo etc that allows it. So personal choice of course comes into it but you eat sugar from any form you are not following carnivore guidelines to achieve the best results from a massive elimination menu which is carnivore is all about…so…yea diff. sides of the debate for sure, I get that.

@Azi
cool but if carnivore is not any plants or sugar, how can any of it be carnivore and I DO suspect, in the future, carnivore ‘as a plan’ will be changed and adapted ‘out there on the net’ to ‘fit all’ but in truth, what a scam that will be and what a true disappoint on what it takes for many individuals who ‘go carnivore, animal kingdom only’ and wonder why they don’t fare well…but to be determined of course :slight_smile:

#67

I’m as big a fan of Ol’ Ken as the next man but he stands no chance in any sort of open debate with Saladino. There is a podcast kicking around in which they shared viewers’ questions, and where Saladino broached the subject then. I recall how Dr Ken responded, ‘Yeah, eat carbs - if you don’t mind getting fat again!’

For me, Berry sits on the opposite side of the spectrum (all carbs are evil and as long as something is from an animal you can eat it). I’ve heard him saying processed meats are fair game and loading up with Spam is ok, if that’s all you can afford. Again, very dogmatic.

#68

processed meats that don’t contain high concentration of sugar in the ingredients are fair game for sure, cause thru convenience of life that meat product you buy (if not massive injected with sugar) is way better than having sugar so…your ‘meat source’ in that product trumps eating plants or sugar loaded products easily.

So yea, spam is cool actually and heck I eat taylor ham which is processed but it is meat, with a high fat content…3 slices is 200 kcals, 150 kcals from fat content with a carb load of 1 g for those 3 slices so the meat and fat cancel the 1 g carb load in full truth cause meat and fat is what the body requires only, so if no carbs ever are needed so…dogmatic on it doesn’t come into play actually cause one can control ‘the convenience processed foods’ one might choose on carnivore and not ever be going against guidelines cause the meat/fat intake trumps the 1g of product carb in it. Carbs give nothing, they take and take and ruin and we as keto people, or paleo people or carnivore people and general lc eaters do know this and do put weight on this. Sugar is what wrecks all of us humans, but IF YOU are one to be able to have some sugar and function well, more power to you, just don’t tell a full on carnivore it is ‘ok’ cause it never will be but of course one has to be in those shoes to even get an idea of what is about.

what is worse in this life is that another tells someone who requires a certain plan to eat that it is ‘just fine’ to dump it and go against what their body requires…ugh…if one can’t fathom what it takes for another then back out of the convo in that it is useless. Carnivores who keep this plan and require this plan will never agree that ingesting pure sugar in any form is the right thing to do for us on plan and require to be here…shades of gray in carnivore plan, yes, and when one can do that they are not carnivore and not on the carnivore plan, which again, IS FINE IF they can do it :slight_smile: Not a thing wrong with general lc plans, paleo or keto or ??, and go off and DO YOU as you need and want, leave the real carnivores alone and let them meet their guidelines as we see fit for our bodies. Too much to ask? ugh

#69

Good points. I know of only two people that are on a meat-only diet. Not by choice. What started out as an elimination diet for a very rare severe auto-immune dysfunction, which appears to have a genic component to it. Both of these two people are related (dad and daughter). They would love to eat other foods and are working with certain doctors and scientists. They are living in a constant experiment. Their focus now is gut health or lack of.

(Linda ) #70

There is a reason that drs like berry and westman say that about processed…if you try to raise the bar too high on quality of meat your leaving a whole lot of people on the sidelines who can’t afford not to eat processed meats because it’s cheaper and it’s all their budgets allow…and the yet those same ppl are seeing the results the rest of us do as well. Sometimes the bonus of eating grass fed doesn’t add up to that much more improvement…now if your on for a specific medical issue that’s prob a different ball game and def are ppl who need to go super strict…

#71

Wonderful great points Azi!! good posts!

#72

Yep, water is essential to our life. Honey isn’t.
And my body acts just like in the presence of other pure enough sugars. So it’s obvious for me what to do.
And as Fangs wrote, it’s not carnivore so we don’t eat it on carnivore. We can’t as our woe stops being carnivore when we do. I don’t eat it on my most relaxed carnivore-ish either, sugar is so out of place in carnivore when it’s in too high concentration (and amounts. some spices are very carby and they are clearly not carnivore themselves, being plants but they are often allowed in tiny amounts and it makes sense to me).

#73

Preach it S! Cool!

#74

There is a big difference between loading up on nitrates and other popular fillers (potato starch and sugar) and eating cheaper fresh produce. And there can also be a big difference in cost! For example, in my nearest supermarket, a tin of Spam (220g) costs £2.20. And a pack of fresh 20% fat beef mince (400g) costs £2. That’s double the quantity and, I would argue, at least double the quality. Heck, in my local farm shop they give away beef and pork bones. All that lovely marrow, collagen, fatty protein.

Sure, if you get caught out on the move or even like the stuff as a treat now and then then eat it. As a regular staple? No, and advocating this type of stuff is lazy and ill-informed.

#75

I just said something very very obvious :smiley: Amounts matter and things are complicated but there is a huge difference between something being essential and just having a bunch of essential things we can get from other things. I have no idea what honey contains beyond sugar and water but many many plant has many essential nutrients. And what? It doesn’t mean it’s healthy, especially not for everyone. It may be, it may be not, it may depends. Death cap (with its essential nutrients though no one talks about them :smiley: I always just read about vegetables and fruits and grains being oh so awesome, containing things I need… it’s a tad boring after a while especially when most of them is “superfood”) is deadly for all humans while honey is perfectly fine for many (in various amounts) and definitely bad for others.

Meat quality? It matters, sure, probably not as much as people often think (just from a health viewpoint, I am sure there is correlation between okay, morally better animal raising and whatever the cheapest method is and that is important for me too - but not as much as my own health, I am selfish, sorry, do what I can but I have selfish priorities when I must choose) BUT some cheap meat is way more welcomed to my body than the fanciest and truly “best” bio plants. Even the awesome fruits from my own garden. My body notices it’s sugar and it depends what it does but it tries to discourage me for sure.
Sometimes I wonder what I would eat as a (very low-carb, of course) vegan. It wouldn’t be fun I am afraid. It probably would contain less fruit than my borderline carnivore-ish (my proper “carnivore-ish” has no fruits, period except a few drops of lemon here and there) as my normal food would take away the carbs I can afford somehow, not ideally but still, without pains…
My body wants fat and protein and no low amounts of carbs cause problems (except that I would miss my eggs and tiny dairy horribly. maybe even liver. but for my body? the less, the better or at least not worse). Hence the carnivore-ish despite I can handle carbs to some extent and I don’t know a single edible plant that is particularly bad for me, it’s just its carbs especially sugars, I can’t separate them, though :smiley: But if I don’t need them, it’s not a sacrifice to give them up.

But processed meat… I use them, I need them sometimes and they are fun. But I use them in moderation, I am sure that’s the right thing to do and fresh meat and eggs are the food I should focus on. Of course, not all processed meat products are the same but I wouldn’t want to live on any of them…

#76

you are living you point blank. Gonna take a tad harder tact at you!

don’t ever assume you live what it takes for another to ‘hold carnivore plan’ and do what works while they can to achieve results thru having their meat products work for them and it never is ‘just today’ cause if issues change and progress works on this plan as they come into it, with knowledge to help from other carnivores, what is any of the ‘truths about you’ are to anyone else? What exactly are you trying to defend against what the carnivore plan is all about? I don’t think you have a foothold here at all.

you are yammering for 0 reason about carnivore plan to me but hey, I still will always defend your right to do that but in the end, a person on a carnivore plan and wants it guidelines to make it work for them is not you :slight_smile: Something maybe you best accept? debating carnivore acceptance foods and how we can change and adapt thru it has nothing to do with someone not doing the plan :100:

what is your foothold and agenda? and what are you defending on a plan you don’t even do? I am lost in a way here :crazy_face: Go carnivore for a year or so and then come back and chat, well at least the recommended 90 day trial :slight_smile:

(Linda ) #77

Idk about that… fresh cheap produce is often sprayed with all sorts of toxic substances to kill bugs and weeds all of that leaches into the ground and back up into the plant. And yet we worry about the nitrates which the body can prob handle just as well as plant toxins…if the .patients blood work is improving and they are becoming metabolically healthy who are we to judge them by their food choices…
I’m with Fangs here if you want to fo feast on fruit and honey go for it…I mean by all means you do you…but you would have to call it a meat based diet… cos it’s not carnivore you might get get away with calling it carnivorish …but pure sugar is a day off carnivore in my eyes…

#78

I don’t have either. I consider myself educated and able to understand the science behind the ketogenic diet, which I have followed in some shape or form for many years now, as well as the arguments for a carnivore diet.

I have experimented on myself, using blood ketone readings, BG readings, DEXA scans, full blood work, in order to assess my own situation. My default is carnivore, although I cannot (and frankly do not want to) adhere to this strict form of eating 100% of the time.

I apply similar rationale to my training regimen, which is my other main interest.

In summary, no agendas no footholds. I will listen to any well-made point on here or anywhere.

#79

Didn’t I just say “beef”? I’m talking about carnivore here.

EDIT: And you should be aware, if you want to use that argument, around 99.9% of the toxic substances around plants are actually within the plants themselves! This was demonstrated many years ago in the paper by Bruce Ames. Glyphosate and other pesticides are only a small part of the lethal cocktail.

(Bacon is a many-splendoured thing) #80

“Complete food” usually means that a food contains all the essential amino acids in the proper proportions. Since 100 g of honey contains 0.3 g of protein, I am wondering how you are using the term. It is certainly true that if you ate nothing but honey, you would suffer from a protein and fat deficiency, quite apart from the damage from hyperglycaemia, hyperinsulinaemia, and de novo lipogenesis leading to fatty liver disease.

And since 100 g of honey contains 82.1 g of sugars (0.89 g of sucrose, 35.8 g of glucose, 40.9 g of fructose, 1.44 g of maltose, and 3.1 g of galactose), I fail to see how it can act any differently from sugar in the body. The chemicals you mention in your post occur in honey only in trace amounts.

If you have documentation to support your claims for honey, I’d love to see it.