Hobbit vs 2 Keto Dudes


(What The Fast?!) #1

Hi all! Do any of you also listen to the Hobbit Podcast? I hear a lot of conflicting info to the 2 Keto Dudes podcast. They have a much bigger focus on protein and macros.

Just curious if anyone has listened to that one and if you have any thoughts to share!

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #3

The 2KetoDudes use science.

Do your own research and check the validity of sources as opposed to someone’s “opinion”.

There are no keto “rules”.

(I want abs... olutely all the bacon) #4

I haven’t, but will look for it. The FB groups the Hobbit was associated with was a bit odd with barring belly button shots, but great recipes. Sometimes discussions feel too focused on calories

(What The Fast?!) #5

@Becky Yes - agree! It’s very strict over there!
@Brenda Thank you! I agree on the rule book - I’ve been starving trying to keep my cals in the macros from the calculator they use. It’s also higher protein, which I don’t find that I need. They harp on minimum protein quite a bit, and I wasn’t sure that was the right strategy for me. :slight_smile:

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #6

The “experts” disagree widely on what they feel is an accurate protein requirement to maintain LBM.

.6 to 1 gram per kg LBM.

I figure as long as I’m in that range? I’m good. I tend to hang in the middle.

(What The Fast?!) #7

@Brenda -I saw something about Zorn fasting…and I noticed your last name is Zorn. …tell me more. :slight_smile:

(Dustin Cade) #8

N=1 means no absolutes… not even with Keto…

(Richard Morris) #9

I am a FB friend of Karen and Ben. They are nice folk, and in this for I believe the right reasons.

I listened to one of their podcasts, and from what I heard their advice wasn’t that different from ours.

We’ve done 63 podcasts and our understanding of the nuances of keto has changed over that time. So it is not surprising that people have slightly different nuances to their working understandings.

Feel free to ask any question you have that come up listening to their podcast.

(What The Fast?!) #10

Thanks @richard - I agree, they seem lovely. The big differences are in protein intake and CICO focus, I believe. I was super excited to hear you had good results in your recent protein experiment. I’ve never had success with low carb diets before, and I think it’s because I was much too focused on protein and not nearly focused enough on fat. :slight_smile:

It’s been really neat to hear both of your personal experimentations on the podcast. I’m excited to do some experimenting of my own! I’m going to get a Dexa Scan or a BodPod measurement and see how I can improve my numbers!

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #11

April 2017 Zornfast 20-23

(Richard Morris) #12

There are as many dogmatic positions on protein as there are experts.

The following are all g/kg LBM

Dr Fung recommends a minimum of 0.6 and than an excess is not beneficial
Dr Rosedale recommends a minimum of 0.8 and than an excess is not beneficial
The Australian nrv.gov.au/nutrients/protein recommend 0.84 - 25% of caloric intake
Volek & Phinney on page 59 of art and science recommend 0.8 - 1.5 (no evidence that above 1.5 is beneficial)
Volek & Phinney on page 60 suggest 1.5-2.5 anecdotally improves performance of power athletes
Volek & Phinney on page 210 recommend 1.5-2.5
There are Coaches online that will tell you to eat protein until satiation (these are also usually lower fat diets)

Our own recommendation is between 1-1.5 based on the data underlying the nutrient reference values which looks like this

This shows a population of people eating different amounts of protein (measured as a function of their lean body mass) and measuring who were able to stay in nitrogen balance on the axis. In other words people on the 0 line are eating the right amount of protein to maintain their bodies. The range of protein necessary to achieve that ranges from 0.35 - 1.0 which if you think about it is a really large range.

Our guidance was designed at the lower end to have sufficient protein for all subjects in that study to have at least enough to maintain their bodies, and at the upper end following the guidance from Dr Phinney that no credible study had ever established that greater than 1.5 increased protein synthesis.

The other difference between ours, and some of these other opinions is that we are primarily aiming to resolve type 2 diabetes. All protein has an insulin cost which is higher for diabetics, so our advice is to not waste protein on calories and eat just enough for maintenance. But we have people here who only eat meat, and who thrive at relatively high amounts of protein…

As you can see from the underlying data the variance in the human need for protein is very broad and we’re all “snowflakes” and have to find out what works for us.

Realistic about carbs - inspiration
(jketoscribe) #13

There are many schools of thought about keto. It seems to me that it’s many blind men describing the elephant. Some people are deeply based in the science, but even those who claim they follow the science and only the science can totally disagree (e.g. Taubes vs. Guyenet).

That throws the ball back in YOUR court. You need to read, sift, research, read some more, and then try your own N=1 to see what works for YOU. Decide for yourself. And it’s perfectly OK to take a little bit from here, a little bit from there, and a lot from somewhere else. Nobody is completely right, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #14

One source of confusion (at least to me) is that sometimes protein requirements are quoted in terms of grams of protein per kilogram of LBM, and at other times in terms of grams of protein per pound of LBM.

Since 1 lb is very approximately half a kg, one can obviously just halve the “g/kg” number to roughly convert, and I think that can sometimes lead to the confusion. Someone like Phinney, when he’s writing as a scientist will use the metric version, but if he’s talking or lecturing to a general American audience, he might convert “on the fly” to lb units (I think I’ve heard him do so).

Although I have a somewhat scientific background (or like to think I have), I still mainly use lbs(**) when I’m talking about bodyweight, and I prefer to think in terms of grams of protein per lb of LBM. (I use grams for protein because nutritional values on food labels are normally measured in grams per 100g).

** (well, stones (14lb) and pounds actually because that’s what we use in the UK, although the American system of just pounds is slightly more useful. If the UK and the USA were to “properly” metricate, we wouldn’t have to do all this silly conversion, but we haven’t, and we do… :slight_smile: ).

(Richard Morris) #15

When you think about it grams per pound is kind of ridiculous. Half metric half imperial.

It’s one of these things that you only get when dietitians try to be sciencey. Like when they decided that an uppercase 'C’alorie is equal to 1000 a lower case 'c’alories. That is why I make a point to always refer to kCal (kilocalories or to use the dietitan developed unit a Calorie).

There’s nothing inherently wrong with using imperial weights and measures, or with using Metric … it’s just the half:half that messes with people’s heads.

I think the reason Dietitians use grams to refer to nutrients (like protein) is to confuse Americans about the actual amount of these things, but also maybe to make themselves appear more sciencey than they really are. And then because they are talking about body weight, which is measured in pounds … it just seems to make sense to use g/lbs.

1 kg is 2.2 lbs

So 1g/kg is equal to 0.45g/lb (0.45 = 1/2.2)

So the range that we give as 1-1.5 g/kg [LBM] in g/lb is 0.45 - 0.68 g/lb [LBM]

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #16

Thanks for doing the math(s) Richard. :slight_smile:

I know what you mean, and wearing my pseudo-scientist’s hat, agree with you that mixing metric and imperial is unscientific, but that’s exactly what we’ve done in the UK.

Food is pretty well always sold by metric measurements in the UK, and macronutrients are always listed in grams on food labels.

But most laypeople in the UK weigh themselves in imperial measurements (even if doctors and nurses use metric when weighing patients).

One of these days we will convert to metric properly…

(8 year Ketogenic Veteran) #17


(eat more) #18

more proof that your body figures itself out… :blush:
at .8g/lb LBM my target is around 75g
with the metric conversion my range is 42-64

for the past few weeks to a month, i’ve been mostly in the 50’s…other than two low/high days where i was around 35 and 70 (i only backtracked a few weeks)

(matt ) #19

I didn’t like the production value on the hobbit podcast but that’s probably not what people are asking about

(Richard Morris) #20

No one produces quite like @carl - that’s an unfair comparison :slight_smile:

Compare them to for example the KetoGains podcast, and I think their production values are pretty good.