Hitting the Macros: Newbie Question

(Back Row Matt) #1

I’ve been scouring the board and I’m finding bits and pieces of answers to my question, but I haven’t been able to find the exact question/answer.

I’m coming up on a month of doing the diet. When I first started, a friend explained the macros like this: Protein is a goal (do your best to hit it), Carbs is a limit (keep it under 20 and you’ll be fine), and Fat is open (eat fat if you are hungry, but if you’re not, it’s okay if you don’t hit it).

I spent the first 3 weeks following that guideline and many days I didn’t get anywhere near hitting the fat goal. I haven’t found myself being super hungry, even since the first few days (which surprised me).

Week 1: Dropped quick (water weight).
Weeks 2 & 3: Dropped about 1/4 to 1/2 a pound each day, occasionally more.

In Week 3, I found 2 Keto Dudes and began listening to a lot of back episodes and I began to get the impression that if I’m not eating enough fat, Keto won’t work right (I don’t recall them saying that exactly, that was just the sense I’ve been picking up and have since read a few articles from other sources that definitely DO say that).

So, I’ve been upping my fat in Week 4. I’ve been doing my best to hit the Fat Macro as well as the Protein Macro. I don’t go over either and I’m still in a Calorie deficit. However, since the change, I’ve noticed the weight drop stopped (which, at my weight over over 400, I feel like shouldn’t be happening yet, as I used to eat 3000 to 4000 calories a day and now I’m at 2000 or less).

Worse, the last two days, I’ve gained half a pound each day. And while the urine test strips tell me I’m still in Ketosis, the results used to be in the moderate level and they’ve been in the trace level these last few days.

I do feel like I’m forcing myself to eat fat. Not to the point of feeling sick or anything, but I could do without a lot of it most days.

So, I guess my question is: Was the original advice I was given correct? Is it a MUST to try at hit the fat macro or is it okay to let that one fluctuate as needed, while I focus on hitting the protein goal and staying under the carb limit?

Now, let me be clear: I know keto works differently for most people and that weight loss isn’t the only measure of success here, but I feel like it should only make sense that at my extreme weight, I should still be losing at this point, consistently. But I could be wrong about that.

Any guidance? (Thank you in advance.)

(Jack Bennett) #2

I would say yes.

Forcing yourself to eat when not hungry is unnecessary, and not eating when hungry is a bad idea (at least until you’re fat-adapted and/or experienced at fasting and know your body signals better.)

If you’re eating 2-3 meals daily and you’re not hungry, you can always make up the difference later. I mean that in a satiety sense, not in a “hitting your fat macro” sense.

#3

I can’t see how forcing yourself to eat more fat when you’re not hungry would help with weight loss.

I’m not sure why you would even change after starting out so well.

In the end, what it comes down to – it takes time to lose (or gain) a pound of fat (or muscle). Most short-term weight fluctuation is going to be a simple change in retained water and digestive tract contents.

(Back Row Matt) #4

Well, it’s like you said - I’m starting, so I thought maybe the early progress might be explained by water weight, etc. I was more worried about health and long-term progress, and was/am confused as to how to follow the fat macro.

I do know the weight will likely fluctuate, but it just seemed strange to see such an abrupt turnaround from consistent loss to consistent gain. Thanks for your candor.

(Back Row Matt) #5

Thank you! Follow up:

So, would you say in your experience, that you find satiety as a better barometer for the fat macro then actual fat percentage? Because, as I said, some days I wouldn’t get anywhere near the fat macro target, sometimes by as much as halfway, but I wouldn’t be hungry. Is that okay?

(Jack Bennett) #6

My approach has generally been more guided by intuition and estimates than exact measurements. So I’ll do brief food diaries without measurements, for example. I don’t know exact macro counts or percentages but I aim for 100-150g protein, maybe 150-200g fat, and “as little as possible” for carbs.

In this case I’m focusing on high satiety with a fairly short eating window, so I’m essentially eating one big meal with a lot of fat and protein. Focusing on satiety seems to work well in enabling OMAD for me at this particular stage.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #7

The advice most frequently given on these forums is to ignore small day-to-day weight fluctuations. They simply reflect different amounts of water retention, stomach and intestinal contents. Weigh yourself before and after eating, urinating and/or dumping and you will see. When you have an extreme amount of adipose tissue water give/take is significant. At 400 lbs a half pound daily fluctuation is diddly. Weigh yourself once a week or once a month, not daily. The long-term trend is important: 1-2 pounds per week is typical. Also, lose some, gain some, stall and repeat seems to be the way it goes for most. When you start eating keto a lot happens all at once, so you have to give yourself and your metabolism time to adjust to all the changes. Depending on the current state of your metabolic health this could be enormously significant.

Macros are a tool not a law. They are meant to help you attain whatever dietary goals you set for yourself. Thus, they are flexible based on experience of what does or doesn’t work for you. Some people live by the numbers, most don’t simply because they would find the weighing and tracking onerous and tedious (ie too much like Weight Watchers! and other CICO diets that failed).

As noted, many folks don’t even bother with macros other than to keep carbs sub 20-grams per day and eat equal amounts of fat and protein by weight (usually guestimated!). The ‘macro’ for them is eat when you’re hungry stop when you’re not. Also, many folks who have lost large amounts of weight say that strictly controlling eating times is just as important or even more so than what exact proportions of fat/protein you eat. Many fast by eating only during a daily ‘window’ of several hours and not eating at all the remainder of the day - and absolutely no snacking. Keep in mind, though, that if you want to encourage your metabolism to eat your endogenous fat, you need to eat less fat off the plate. Daily energy requirements are met by plate fat plus body fat and as long as you give your metabolism sufficient plate fat it will spare your body fat. But you have to do this carefully to avoid slowing down your overall metabolism.

Some folks, like me, do not have significant hunger and satiety ‘signals’ to use them successfully to manage our eating. So we use macros to set daily fat/protein target amounts, not percentages, and weigh food portions to ensure we do so. Generally, those who do this long term do not find it particularly onerous and I suspect, like me, find it quite interesting to maintain daily logs. Personally, in addition, I do it so I can see exactly what I ate on any particular day and from that determine any interesting outcomes over the next few days.

If you’re interested in the specifics of how I set up my macros I will explain. But keep in mind that macros are only as useful as you make them for yourself, not how well or not specific numbers work for someone else. I’ve been eating keto for a couple weeks shy of 3 years and in maintenance for 2+ years. I did not have to lose a lot of weight and I did not have any particular metabolic or other health issues to deal with.

Congratulations on what you’ve accomplished so far and best wishes for continued success.

(Back Row Matt) #8

I found this extremely encouraging and helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time. I will stop the daily weigh-ins see if I can make this a little easier on myself by mainly focusing on keeping the carbs low and just eating good keto food. I am Type 2, and my glucose numbers have been phenomenal, so I think I have some time to experiment with what works best for me as long as my numbers stay in the normal range. Thank you, truly.

#9

Up your calories dude! At over 400lbs you have a VERY large engine to fuel! Cutting your fuel source in half like that will put yourself into a panic and our metabolisms “adapt” ie: slow down to compensate. You probably need at LEAST 3000-3500 to keep yourself going. Remember, this is about fat loss, not “weight” loss. You have any clue how much lower body muscle you probably have? Probably enough that with the fat stripped off your legs could rival many bodybuilders. Loosing weight from muscle isn’t cool. Figure out your metabolism the best you can and don’t do more than a 20% deficit. As you loose weight (fat) your caloric needs will naturally drop, and you can drop your intake with it to keep the weight loss going.

There is no fat goal, we don’t have to fear fat but shouldn’t be looking for excuses to add it in either. Many people do exactly that at first and in some situations that can help but as a whole hit your protein goals (your’s is probably pretty high) watch those carbs and fat can fill the gaps. You just don’t want to wind up going “low fat” or anything.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #10

That means Type2 is the most important thing for you to concentrate on first. Any medications you may be taking will affect your progress. If you manage the diabetes by keeping your BG and insulin consistently in the low end of the normal range, your weight will follow it down. You may want to start another topic to ask for specific advice from others who have dealt with Type2 successfully - there are many on the forum who have done so. One thing I’ve noticed is that those who have been successful with both Type2 and weight/fat loss use ‘intermittent fasting’ as a tool.

(Back Row Matt) #11

So, I get what you’re saying with the calorie thing, but how do I up my calories when I’m not hungry? I get to my protein goal most of the time. My carbs usually clock in at around 12-15. I’m eating good fatty meats, while trying to get in healthy greens too. I’m not sure how to add more calories without way over shooting macros or just making me sick on adding more fat.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #12

Hunger is a wind talker and if you can hear him and understand what he’s trying to tell you, good things happen. You know, it’s good advice to ‘eat when you’re hungry stop when you’re not’. But if you’re never hungry, never hear your wind talker, and are losing weight slowly but steadily you’re probably eating enough. Carry on.

Do not fear hearing your wind talker! If you hear him once in a while, like before meals, he’s saying things are just fine, ‘we’re drawing down internal stores a bit, not to worry’. If you hear your wind talker consistently, though, before, after and between meals, he’s saying ‘we’ve reached the limit of what we can draw down, eat more’. If you ignore your wind talker you will slow your metabolism. If you listen to your wind talker you won’t.

The main problem with CICO diets is people are told to ignore their wind talker. They have to feel the pain to get the gain. Doesn’t work.

#13

If you are not hungry and feels right, it’s fine to eat not very much fat as you have enough fat reserves to make up for even a big difference between your energy intake and energy need.
But if you are hungry and you are far from your energy need, eat (even if you are close or beyond if you ask me but I advice changing something in your diet or timing then). You don’t need to be obsessed with your fat macro. I don’t even care about it, I had great days with 50g fat and 250g fat as well (I lost nothing in the latter case but my energy need is small and a higher calorie day is nice now and then just like a high protein or lower calorie day isn’t a problem either. my protein was really high in the first case, I had no problem with satiation), my normal intake is in a smaller range or course but it just happens to be there due to my staple food (I almost always eat only very fatty protein), it’s not that important. It’s fine if you eat more fat and adequate protein but if higher protein and less fat works better, do that. Fat isn’t a goal, isn’t a limit to me, it’s just some number I don’t care about (I care about calories though, without much fat reserves I even have a calorie goal, well, you shouldn’t actually starve yourself either and you need your nutrients so going too low probably isn’t a good idea). Fat is a limit for many people but we aren’t the same. If you experience you like to have it in a small range or below a number or above a number, keep it there. Each to their own.

Percentages don’t matter at all, at least in normal keto, not therapeutic keto. There are lots of wriggle room.

(Ken) #14

IMO, it is better to hit the macros rather than worry about hitting the caloric level. Even though you may weigh 400 lbs, caloric needs are based on lean body mass, that is without the fat. Sooo, depending on LBM, you may not be undereating. This is especially true if you haven’t been weight training, as normal fat people have a bad habit of overestimating how much muscle they actually have, because they are so big. Type 1 muscle typically does not have much mass, it’s the Type 2 that makes you muscular in terms of size.

Fat loss will now be slower, one to two pounds per week averaged over time. One week may show nothing, the next you may drop two or three. In this phase you just have to be patient, and don’t be concerned with eating more if you’re not hungry. Metabolic effects of undereating like Stalls typically come much later, months if not years later.

(Justin Jordan) #15

Then don’t.

If you feel good and you’re getting the results you want, don’t change stuff just because.

(Jack Bennett) #16

Another factor that I don’t think anybody has mentioned yet is that with a large amount of stored body fat, a person can tap into that for daily energy needs.

The estimate I always hear is 30 kcal/lb fat mass. If you have 100 lbs of extra body fat, you could theoretically get 3000 kcal of energy per day. (I’ve heard Richard mention this number on 2KD but I don’t know where the estimate comes from. Please let us know if you know.)

It seems plausible to me that a person with lots of body fat might have low appetite as they become fat adapted, because the body can supply plenty of energy from the “reserve”. As a person reaches a lower level of body fat, that energy supply will of course taper off.

(Back Row Matt) #17

That is something I was wondering about because I’ve kinda seen conflicting things about this and was wondering if upping my fat intake this past week was just causing my body to not need to dig into the (COPIOUS) amounts of reserves I have on me already.

(squirrel-kissing paper tamer) #18

I can’t remember what the source is but I remember someone posting something about how we can only eat so much of our own behind in one day and then we need dietary fat and the way to know is when you’re running out of gas. Sorry, that’s the least scientific thing I’ve ever said in my life.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #19

@PetaMarie There’s nothing unscientific about ‘running out of gas’ in my book. :wink:

(Jenna Ericson) #20

I think I found Richard’s original post about this:
Why fasting is easier for some people