Hitting my keto limits!


(Jack Brien) #1

I seem to be hitting my limits with exercise and it’s frustrating because of the keto! Now that I’m all fat adapted, I’m not tiring or becoming out of breath particularly easily and this means that I’m hitting the physical limitations of my body in other ways. I did an hour kickboxing class this morning then went for a run, but I had to stop after about 10k due to my legs. I’m a fairly slow runner and barely even getting out of breath. Frustrating as hell as I’m trying to increase my endurance. Maybe I need to up the pace a bit, rather than the distance?


(ianrobo) #2

the key for fitness is for the same time period in static conditions to go faster.

that shows in running/cycling/swimming etc you are getting aerobically fitter.

Mentioned before the MAF method but check on that for the way to go.


(Jack Brien) #3

My average hr was 161, max 176 bpm. I’ll give the MAF a go, if I can slow that much without walking!


(ianrobo) #4

ah walking may have to be done to start with until you become aerobically fitter …


(Jack Brien) #5

I read that many people have that issue, but I don’t really understand how dropping to a walk would help. I did have a look at a brisk walk I did recently, hr 105, so maybe I won’t have to go quite that slow


(ianrobo) #6

Well do not know how old you are so lets say 40 then you MAF is 140 so you can go up to that. actually some like Peter Defty think you can go up to 10bp,m higher but the likes of Brad Kearns, Mark Sissons and Phil M disagree.

So you have a lot to give from brisk walk to light jog that would be below the MAF level and I take MAF as an average HR anyway with some efforts in the session.

But they do say if you have to walk, you walk and Brad himself has done this.


(Jack Brien) #7

MAF 130-135. I’ll do a test this evening, see what happens


(ianrobo) #8

yeah let me know would be interested as if you are running with average HR 161 that is very heavy on your body and MAF is about combatting that. In fact on his latest talks with podcasts (seems a new study out soon ) that Phil M is saying he has seen athletes get quicker with NO speed work - check out Endurance planet latest.


(Jack Brien) #9

Funny, I just subscribed to that and started listening on the way home tonight


(ianrobo) #10

Yeah and they have changed a bit from being a bit anti Keto to embracing it


#11

MAF heart rate is a statistic (180 - age + small corrective factor), how to trust that? It’s an adaptation of the Åstrand formula for maximum heart rate (220 - age), which we perfectly know is complete BS (not blood sugar, hey). It’s even worse, the original data by Åstrand did not give this relationship (go fetch the original paper and do a linear regression, you’ll be surprised), it’s a later invention.

If you want to know your optimal heart rate for fat burning, either get checked (progressive treadmill test with breath analysis) or use proxies if you have put decent long distance training (e.g. marathon pace - 10/15 bpm). I’m goddamn sure Maffetone gets all his athletes checked.


(Jack Brien) #12

So are you saying the whole MAF/low intensity training thing is bs or just the aerobic hr calculation? It does seem lower than other calculations ie https://www.brianmac.co.uk/mobile//hrm1.htm


(Jack Brien) #13

Didn’t seem to work out too well. Heart rate never seemed to settle, either too high or too low, average 120bpm. Times got quicker each km, 9:14, 8:57 & 8:46.
I’ll try another test in a couple of days and see if I can keep it more steady.
On a plus note, my new watch says I have the vo2max of a 20 year old :thinking:


(ianrobo) #14

yes he does and if you listen to the podcast I referenced he goes into detail on how the figure is found.

It is not plucked out of thin air but was done after analysing the stats he was seeing. It basically is Zone 2 HR for most people but is an easier way for people to work it out.


(ianrobo) #15

I do look at the average which shows you well below MAF though ? However the general point is to ‘take it easy’ and not do days and days of HIIT or the run like you did at 161bpm because long term it will only damage you. Especially as fat adapted athletes this is even more so because the better we are then even at high stress rates we burn more fat than carbs which is easier on the body (Peter Defty’s point why for fat adapted athletes can increase MAF by 10).


(Jack Brien) #16

Ok. I found your other thread on MAF and had read. I’ll check out the defty podcast later. So I can bump my MAF HR up to say 145 and as long as the training is below that, at any level that’s fine? Does that apply to the test too though? I can see that my average of 120bpm would be well below the HR for training but surely for the test it needs to be within 10 or you won’t get a true representation of your times and improvement?
One other question :grinning: how does it effect other training opportunities, for instance strength training/kickboxing? Do I need to keep my heart rate consistently low or will training with a higher heart rate two or three times a week ruin the effect?


(ianrobo) #17

OK a lot but lets say other types of training can be at higher, no one is saying you do MAF 100% of the time, I think Brad Kearns says 80% of the time and HIIT sessions etc should be matched in.

The Defty idea of 10 higher is dissed by Maffetone etc but make up your own mind, Find the Primal Endurance podcast where he and Brad had a right real debate on this, fascinating stuff. Basically Peter says if you are a fat burner you can go higher as less stress on your body.

the MAF test should be done for the 20 mins where all the time the HR is below your MAF score, for me on a bike I can not really do this outside as conditions so variable but running is easier if you have a flat run etc


(Ross) #18

Have you tried the pool / laps yet? You’ll feel it! :slight_smile:


#19

I distrust unpublished results. Individuals tweaking things around tend to produce results (in good faith) plagued with biases (e.g. confirmation, selection). Why couldn’t he publish a graph predicted v. measured for all his tested athletes, giving not only a formula but an rms?


(ianrobo) #20

would be good if everyone did that and he would have the data just depends on what to analyse, his theory on 10 more is just that based on what fat burning can do. I like to experiment and I do what I call MAF plus, which is on training rides, have the average HR at MAF but allow for peaks etc so that means resting after efforts, say climbing an hill