High Protein Modified "Keto + Fasting" muscle building with low fat

(Karim Wassef) #41

Woke up to a lower glucose and slightly better ketone reading than I expected given that I ended last night at 83G and 0.2K:

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After eating a tub of tuna protein yesterday and keeping fat under 100g, I was expecting a bad outcome.

I was actually a little hungry a little after that meal! Even though I was uncomfortably stuffed… I didn’t think I’d be hungry for days.

But I indulged in 52g of almonds. My suspicion is that the high fiber and fat pushed up my ketones. Fiber fermenting into butyric acid in the gut creates a sustained release of fatty acids. Add to that the exogenous fat in the almonds and it increases ketones just a bit.

Unfortunately, it’s not endogenous fat usage so it’s higher ketones but maybe no fat loss.

Another theory is that the net caloric deficit (since I didn’t break 2000 compared to my usual 2800-3000) contributed to the higher ketones. That concerns me actually because a caloric deficit with low ketones (0.3 is very low) could be wasting lean mass.

But blood sugar nicely under control, so GNG looks to be under control?

(Karim Wassef) #42

I see a lot of “don’t chase high ketones” on the high protein discussions and vids.

I get it. It’s hard to get to ketones > 1 while eating a lot of protein. But I see the muscle sparing, calmness and cognitive benefits of higher ketones as very significant.

I hope my fasting with protein (starting tomorrow) will help get me to both higher ketones and higher protein.

(Karim Wassef) #43

If you’ve followed here from other threads, please shout out so I know I’m not talking into a mostly empty room? :smiley:

Feedback reduces my blood glucose - so please do your part to promote my health and well being… :joy:

https://youtu.be/GD6qtc2_AQA

(bulkbiker) #44

Definitely here and watching… thinking of ditching dairy and going for more protein less fat in July so very interested in your results… Please keep going.

(mole person) #45

Present!

(Mame) #46

Your experiments are one of the reasons I am on this forum. :wink:

You experiment so I don’t have to… (not really but I am making it all about me…)

(Little Miss Scare-All) #47

Look at all I’ve missed. Late af to the party.

#cheesyfeetandtuna

(Karim Wassef) #48

Nice…

(Karim Wassef) #49

Thank you all for joining in. I need your support when I do these things.

Wife just laughs until she pees a little when she watches me tackle 8 cans of tuna. You may too, but at least I don’t know it.

:slight_smile:

#50

Don Layman is always worth a listen.

(Karim Wassef) #51

Today at midday, I was at 80G, 0.6K which is actually better than my usual 85G, 0.4K

The daytime hunger is less pronounced but it’s there. I do feel myself adapting better to the high protein but I suspect that my timing is still off when it comes to maximizing muscle gain with protein intake.

Here’s my regular:

Morning - take supplements with coffee blend. No caloric content except for 1/2 tsp of MCT.

12noon-1pm - lift heavy for 30 minutes and sauna for 30 minutes. Immediately after, take 4g of Leucine.

5pm - tan every other day for vitamin D and Nitric Oxide.

7pm-8pm - 100g fat, 15g carbs, 240g protein including at least 5g Leucine.

Fast & repeat.

I’m thinking that the time between lifting/Leucine and OMAD protein/Leucine is too long ~ 6 hrs. This is when I am at my hungriest.

The Leucine post-lifting triggers mToR and stops AMPK, so I might be causing a bit of chaos.

But without protein, this Leucine bolus basically starts the muscle building engine but can’t actually build anything. My thought is that this is really anti-catabolic to aid in recovery.

But during that time, I’m not sure if I’m burning fat since AMPK is throttled back. So I’m getting no benefits in muscle or fat? Alternatively, Leucine is ketogenic so it might accelerate fat oxidation to create energy for the muscle building (that never happens).

Then at night, I eat my big protein meal with Leucine and now I get the big mToR/insulin signal to rebuild… but is it too late?

I’m thinking out loud here because I don’t have the answers… just many questions .

I have pieces of the puzzle and it “is working” because for the first time, I’m not losing muscle while being on keto… I mean not losing ANY muscle and I see some vascular development visually… and strength gains… but my fat is also flat so nothing is really moving. No measurable muscle mass and no fat loss.

(Karim Wassef) #52

Maybe it’s best to delay my lifting so I eat within 30minutes of lifting instead of 6 hours later… or eat a protein meal right after lifting (breaking OMAD).

So many experimental variables.

I’m sticking with this one for now… OMAD protein for a month. But maybe I’ll move my lifting window to 5pm-6pm and eat at 6:30pm.

(Karim Wassef) #53

Today was leg day… I hate leg day

Forward squat machine
Reverse squat machine
Front leg separate lifts machine
Donkey kick machine
Hamstring curls machine

:sob:

(Karim Wassef) #54

Also thought I’d share my current injuries -

I have bursitis in my right shoulder socket
I have a partially torn right bicep tendon
I have a strained lower back

All self induced due to over lifting :blush:

(Mame) #55

stop that! it’s contra-indicated to damage the test subject by the study. :grin: this needs to be generalizable or else how does it help me LOL if the IRB gets wind of this… mumble

(Karim Wassef) #56

The test subject is not compliant… attempts to regulate behavior have failed.

We’ll have to take the data as is unless he breaks himself and the experiment stops. :slight_smile:

(Karim Wassef) #57

Today’s meal was actually good. 2 cans of tuna I can do

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and the pea protein is ok… easier to swallow than 6 more cans of tuna, even if it has more fat.

I got to maintain carbs under 20g and fat under 100g with 240g of protein.

Truth is that the veggie proteins only count at 60%-70% of animal proteins, but it’s ok.

This is my last meal of the week except for the pea shakes for the next three days.

(Karim Wassef) #58

Hmmm… hungry tonight

The bulk from the tuna last night kept me sated but the pea powder was more dense.

Tomorrow and the next two days are protein only fasting days so this may be rough…

(Pierre Dogbo) #59

Hey bro I made a account just to reply to your post. First off congrats on your progress and continued determination. From the looks of it you’re very close to you’re goal. I just want to suggest first that your 240g of protein is extremely high and to my knowledge doesn’t fit keto macros. I wouldn’t be surprised if this much protein would spike your insulin. Remember keto is moderate protein. Currently I’m 165lb and 9.5% body fat Down from 180lb and 12.5% after only a month of keto (70% fat 20% protein 10 carbs). I’ve done OMAD In the past before keto but these days I do a standard IF window a few days a week and have had great results.

Besides protein I also saw that you listed many injuries you have given yourself. I want to stress the fact that you’re VERY close to your goal. I think Now is a wise time slooow down and come up with a sustainable lifestyle plan that you can implement long term. I’ve done the yo yo diet and it sucks! You reach your goal then lax up (because it was unstainable in the first place) and then gain weight back then go back to torturing yourself and on and on. Please bro I would re strategize your macros and pace yourself to your goals. I hope this helps if not the specifics then the mindset. Also if anyone has any corrections to anything I said please update me. Much respect

(Karim Wassef) #60

Pierre! Welcome and thanks for looking out! :smiley:

I know this isn’t normal keto that’s why I call it modified keto. The simplest definition is carbs < 20g and I’m doing that.

I realize the protein is high and it’s intentional. Pretty much agree on the short term insulin spike. I can literally see my ketones drop and glucose increase. That’s why I only do it once a day.

When I kept protein low, I lost lean mass.

I’m not really that close to my goal though … :slight_smile: I’ve never been under 18% bf so this is actually a pretty hard wall for me. Every time I try to get through it, I lose lean mass faster than fat & my body fat actually increases.

My goal is 12-13% without losing the ~140lbs of muscle mass I have. I’d like to slowly walk to 160lbs total mass with 20lbs fat (currently at 40lbs). Losing half my body fat is a lot… building muscle is also hard since I’m almost 46.

You’re actually just about where I’d like to be eventually. I am trying to take it easier on the heavy lifting but my body doesn’t respond without extremes. In some ways, I feel like I’m running out of time as I get older and I feel more anabolic resistance. I’ve even had testosterone testing to help me figure out why I’m not gaining like I used to.

Appreciate your feedback! Please share more of your experience.