High Protein Modified "Keto + Fasting" muscle building with low fat

[carolT]

for high protein low fat … its looking good for fat loss but bad for lean loss/gain:

Instead of looking at it as a muscle issue, how about a muscle glycogen turnover issue? You are depleting it but not restoring it fully because _________ . As long as strength is increasing, at least or not decreasing, all is well.

[Ilana_Rose]

Yah, to be honest I pretty much agree with everything you said in this post.

It’s far too soon to draw any conclusions. In fact, your body is still likely adapting to the newest protocol.

[Ilana_Rose]

I see strength, but not mass.

So your muscle fibres are growing. I’m still really confused by your focus on mass.

[Karim_Wassef]

today, fat mass dropped again and so did lean mass. Here’s the updated view

I changed the scales for lean and fat mass so they’re the same (1lb per division each) to show the difference in change

[Karim_Wassef]

Hi Mo

1. Do you track circumference at all eg chest, shoulders, biceps and waist etc
   Nope - I really should though.

2. I am South Asian and find that my fat distribution is gynoid rather than android
   My fat is mostly just belly fat and probably cortisol based.

3. As alluded to above Ive found the bioimpedance scales misleading wrt lean mass and fat mass - it seems all linked to hydration rather than anything else. I suspect Dexa isnt much morw reliable.
   I think so too, but it’s the best measure we have.

4. What would ur lean mass etc graphs look like if u just plotted dexa results over time?
   I don’t have that many DEXA plots… excluding the datasets I think had errors, they’d look like this:
   

   

5. Have you considered using 3d body scans to measure and track eg Styku?
   I have but I haven’t yet tried any of them.

[Karim_Wassef]

I could make a remark here about “it’s a guy thing”… LOL

but seriously, I see muscle as the glucose sink for the body and a key to longevity. The more lean mass I can build up now, the less effect my diet can have on my health… think of it as becoming more robust.

Gabrielle Lyon talks about this a lot

also… guy thing…

[x-Dena-x]

Not only guys.

[Karim_Wassef]

Monday and Tuesday, I decided to enjoy some nuts and avocado…

Today, I’m going to intentionally increase my fat a little but still keep my overall caloric intake at ~2000 and my protein at 240g. I’d rather plan for it than be tempted without a budget.

My assessment is that I’m losing weight (whatever composition) too fast and my ketones are too low for this kind of rapid loss. I need more fat to land this plane safely.

I’m also shifting my weightlifting to be just before dinner, later in the day.

[Ilana_Rose]

I could make a remark here about “it’s a guy thing”… LOL

but seriously, I see muscle as the glucose sink for the body and a key to longevity. The more lean mass I can build up now, the less effect my diet can have on my health… think of it as becoming more robust.

What I’d said was:

So your muscle fibres are growing. I’m still really confused by your focus on mass.

In response to you saying:

I see strength, but not mass.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear enough. The point that I was making is that if your strength is increasing then your muscles are growing.

Your hyperfocus on lean mass under the condition of increasing strength is a bit like someone worrying about an increase in scale weight after a 72 hr fast. They lost fat, period. It doesn’t matter the noise in the scale. They can’t not have under a condition of fasting.

Similarly, if you are gaining strength you absolutely are gaining muscle tissue.

It’s absolutely not a guy thing either. I love getting stronger and believe it’s about the best thing I can me doing in my 50’s to give me the best shot at a healthy and vibrant second half of my life. But I measure the amount of muscle I have by my strength increases because other measures have insane amounts of noise.

What confuses me is this. If you can see increasing strength, which you say you can, why are you concerning yourself so much with drops in lean mass? The increased strength means your muscle tissue is increasing.

[Karim_Wassef]

interesting point, but mass and strength are not the same.

I see mass as an indicator of how much of a glucose sink I have. I don’t know if strength is an equal, better or worse indicator.

We’ll have to do some research on it because I really don’t know the answer.

[Ilana_Rose]

Muscle tissue is the glucose sink, right? It isn’t glycogen, or connective tissues, or skin, or water.

And, increased strength bespeaks increased muscle tissues.

What tissue are you thinking might be a sink for glucose other than muscle fibres?

I understand that you don’t have the answer, atm. I’m posting this to distill the query. I think a few of us who follow your threads have been posing it in various forms for a while now.

[Karim_Wassef]

strength is not just about increased muscle fibers

it’s also about greater contraction ability, increased muscula-neural connectivity, etc…

It’s possible to have high strength and low mass with fewer fibers.

My favorite example is Bruce Lee’s physique vs. Arnold (yes, that’s my generation)… which do you expect would have a larger glucose sink?

[Karim_Wassef]

I don’t know enough about this… so here’s what I’m finding:

(more to come)

[Ilana_Rose]

Ok. I like that we are hitting this question head on. I’ll get into this research with you.

[Karim_Wassef]

Day 10 - Wednesday June 26, 2019

I also forgot to mention earlier that yesterday was a 2MAD day due to a work lunch I could not abstain from.

I’m open to tweaking, but not massive changes. The timing of my lifting is an important one, I think.

[cervyn]

Ok. I like that we are hitting this question head on. I’ll get into this research with you

Thanks so much for this discussion. I can’t wait to hear the research reports, because I too was thinking that gain in strength must indicate muscle mass gain.

I am guessing that the answer will be some kind of curve, because surely at times this is true, but not a 1 to 1 relationship which is how I was thinking about it.

[Karim_Wassef]

Size vs. Strength: How Important is Muscle Growth For Strength Gains? •...

[Diygurl19]

Just use this counter. It will tell you how much protein to eat in order to gain muscle.

How Much Protein On A Keto Diet - Is Too Much Bad for Ketosis?

[marklifestyle]

Got here late… you can see from this dexa between April 3 and May 15 the losses and gains which included a ten day fast. Since January 1 2017 I have had 13 dexascans. After Ketofest 2018 I quit tobacco and gained 30 pounds, 22 of it fat. In January of 2019 I was finally able to fast again for 5-10 days every 5-6 weeks. You can see this reflected in the increase in Body Fat percentage and then the loss. I think homeostasis played a role as to part of why my lean mass increased so well, as I am 55.

Protein makes a poor energy source. I would not over do the protein and you can see I didn’t. I did lower fats from a year ago but I doubled my carbs. Both my BHB and BRace are perfect ketosis. According to Dom D’Agostino ketones are muscle sparring and possibly an inducement to growth.

Now I should say I break a fast in a very particular way. I finish my last lift and then I use BCAA, leucine and whey plus heavy cream. I drink double servings. Then 45 minutes later a ribeye . I lift the following day and double serve again and finally the third day and double serve again. After that I no longer supplement whey or BCAA. I am trying to take advantage of having had such a low insulin ( .9 uIU/mL and elevated GH 3.6 ng/mL).

[Freischuetz]

almost the same here:

last 8 weeks, deficit of 456 kcal (a bit too much of protein, and not enough fat…)

lean mass went up (unexpected):

body fat went down (expected):

i dont drink BCAAs, no Whey after workouts. i go to gym fasted in the early morning. water, salt, magnesium chloride and kalium citrate is all i have during workout. and a glass of the same before workouts.