High Protein Modified "Keto + Fasting" muscle building with low fat


(Kirk Wolak) #201

First, I recommend DarthLuigi at ketogains. Met him in person, and he is the real deal, and looks like you probably want to look.

He has lots of info on their website about doing what you want. You don’t need an insane amount of protein to stop from losing muscle.

Also, REST is more important that working out every day. In fact, my first thought is… If you are lifting EVERY DAY, when are you rebuilding??? (you rebuild when you rest/heal).

I would assume you are stressing your body constantly. If I do that, I start getting colds/run down… Slow/Slow or Time Under Tension until Exhaustion takes a lot out of you (it does me). Dr. Ben warns not to do it more than twice a week, if you are going that intense… To give your body healing time.

Also, don’t be afraid to cycle between gaining muscle, and losing fat. But you will have to experiment to find the perfect blend of protein, and let your body burn your fat. I think the Sauna Daily is fine. Personally, I would do HIIT 3 times a week, and the Slow/Slow twice a week, reduce the fat as your are planning, and pick the protein up only a little bit.
I would also use a dexa scan, give your body a few 90 days, and measure. Tweak your numbers, and do another 90 days. Until you find what is perfect for you.

Share your results so others get an idea of how to do this in the future…

Good Luck!


(Karim Wassef) #202

Yes. DarthLuigi is Luis Villasenor that I referenced above. I’ve checked out the ketogains vids and website.

I never exercise the same muscle group more than once a week. So each muscle group gets plenty of time to rest - about a week.

I don’t do HIIT and barely any cardio and still lose fat fast.

My problem with cycling between gaining muscle and losing fat is that I gain more fat than I do muscle and then lose muscle and fat at about the same rate. If I did that over and over, I’d just get fatter based on past experience. That’s why I want to do both and do it consistently.

My only concern with keeping on until DEXA is that I’m losing lean mass faster than I ever have before… that’s bothering me a lot.


(Tony ) #203

Well maybe your exercise regime needs a change. My understanding is that the days rest period before doing the same exercise again is 2 days. That’s what I typically do. I use both pin machines and free weights. I always start with treadmill running for a min of 15 - 30+ mins, then pin machines ( Max all of the upper body machines now ) and free weights. A typical gym workout for me takes 2 hours ( longer if I’m giving someone a keto lecture !! ). It just kinda feels right to be there that long… Remember I have that endurance gene !!!
So that my gym workout is three to four times a week.
I’m lucky ( wot lucky to be old. yuk ) to be retired, so I have plenty of time. Since Keto and testosterone ( and that gene ) I’m normally on fire… Most down there ( including professional coaches have guessed my age at 48-55 because of how I look, act and talk. So I’m a happy fella !! I’ve stolen back 20 years back from the aging system ! and the govt pays me a retirement pension !!! .
Maybe you need to do more regular gym work, I honestly don’t think one exercise a week for any muscle group is anywhere near enough… That could be your problem.


(Mario) #204

i second that, its more for maintenance


(Tony ) #205

The reason I got interested initially in the gym was because having increased muscle increases fat burn, and since I was doing keto to loose fat it seemed a logical extension of that thought.


(Tony ) #206

I still marvel that some days my carbs are almost zero, my ketones are very low as well. I must be very efficient at converting fats or protein into glucose for a 2 hour gym workout unless I’m burning the ketones as I make them. I’ve read reports that other bodybuilders have very low ketones also…


(Natasha) #207

How would eggs fit into your macros? You could try blending your tuna with egg and some fresh herbs then frying that as a patty?


(Karim Wassef) #208

My work restricts my time so I need to lift heavy and fast. I have many responsibilities and limited time. I try to get 6-8hrs of sleep.

Before, you all said that training every day didn’t give me time to recover. Now, training every day but one focus area each means I’m not lifting hard enough? :joy:

Well, I did ask for feedback

If you look at my history, I can maintain and even increase both lean and fat while lifting. And I can lose fat preferentially with carnivore or extended fasting. So the fat and lean loss don’t have to go together on my current lifting schedule. I’d be happy to lose fat and even just maintain lean mass.


(Karim Wassef) #209

When I was using eggs, whey and steak at the end of carnivore, I wasn’t losing lean mass or fats… just flat

For personal reasons, I’m fish meats only for these 4 weeks (3 left to go).


(Ilana Rose) #210

This was my main concern with this protocol. Your body will be metabolizing the protein you eat for energy in the absence of both sufficient carbs and fat.

I like it too. I hate all the others with a fiery passion. I still think you are having far more protein than you need though and this will lead to reduced fat losses.


(Ilana Rose) #211

I’ve listened to a lot of podcasts with protein scientists and not only is this true but it also seems that you don’t need tons of protein to gain muscle.

My husband and I do this once a week and show gains in every exercise every single week. It’s mind-blowing how well it works.


(Karim Wassef) #212

My issue is that I’m eating protein and still losing lean mass… that means GNG is occurring on both protein sources.

I think the caloric deficit is just too high and ketones are too low to be muscle sparing. There’s a balance out there and I think more ketones are the answer.


(Karim Wassef) #213

I’ve always done TUT to failure or near failure… failure at least on the last rep. That hasn’t changed through all my experiments. I see strength, but not mass.


(Karim Wassef) #214

The high protein is not slowing my fat loss. The results show that I’m losing all mass super fast actually. That’s the problem.


(Ilana Rose) #215

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I think your fat loss will slow if you just add 50 grams of fat while keeping your protein at 240 grams.


(Karim Wassef) #216

Maybe I’ll rebalance


(Karim Wassef) #217

Day 9 - Tuesday June 25 2019


(Karim Wassef) #218

Ok.

First - thanks to everyone who has chimed in. I appreciate your voice and perspective.

Now - I’m conflicted between my role as lab rat and scientist :smiley:

The lab rat wants to make immediate changes to stop the apparent lean mass loss.

The scientist has a cooler head, so let’s hear from him:

First, the window of time has only been 7 days. It’s frankly insufficient time to assess any meaningful results given that the daily variation can be as high as 2-3lbs. Even though the data looks convincingly linear, all it would take is for a couple of those data points to be burdened by water or food weight for it to be meaningless.

Second, the scale has proven to be disconnected from DEXA results during extremes. This happened immediately after my extended fast for example. So using the smart scale is interesting, but may not be sufficient to make drastic changes. Maybe it justifies tweaks.

Third, even if the lean mass loss was real, my historical response to rapid loss has been rapid recovery. For example, immediately after my extended fast, I had lost a massive amount of lean mass and it substantially came back in a week. Given that this is a new eating experiment with an apparently rapid lean loss, I may see a similar rebound afterwards.

Fourth, lean mass is not muscle. Every time I’ve lost and gained, there was a substantial redistribution of that mass. This is especially true between upper and lower body. So, given that the scale seems to have bias around the shorter leg impedance path, it may be erroneous. And the lean mass loss may also be a good thing - such as the loss of the protein structure that supports the adiposites in my midsection or just loose skin.

Fifth, I had two pseudo fasting days where I ate protein only (mostly) and my body reacted like it was a real fast with higher ketones and lower glucose. Given my historic loss of lean mass during fasts, that’s potentially a large confounder. Add in work stress for GNG and this week may not be representative.

Sixth, I feel great and look great. The hunger isn’t pleasant but my lifts are going well and I look a lot more vascular.

So, scientist to the lab rat - chill the ffff out…

So the scientist is voting for mostly option 1 with some tweaks… more to come on that


(Karim Wassef) #219

Lipid panel results are in and my doctor is alarmed as usual

CHOL 280

TRI 107 (amazing since I’ve been <20g carbs)
HDL 47
LDL 212

So 107/47 ~ 2.2

Could be better but it’s ok. My CAC was clean.


(Muhammad Nasim) #220

@Karim_Wassef first thanks for your dedication with posting your data, Ive found it incredibly useful in understanding my own progress. I have 5 questions if you don’t mind.

  1. Do you track circumference at all eg chest, shoulders, biceps and waist etc
  2. I am South Asian and find that my fat distribution is gynoid rather than android
  3. As alluded to above Ive found the bioimpedance scales misleading wrt lean mass and fat mass - it seems all linked to hydration rather than anything else. I suspect Dexa isnt much morw reliable.
  4. What would ur lean mass etc graphs look like if u just plotted dexa results over time?
  5. Have you considered using 3d body scans to measure and track eg Styku?

Thanks

Mo