Hey guys. Stuck with few questions in here :|?

[stanpanda]

Hey, new to this lovely forum, while I was browsing for some answers. Sorry in advance for relatively large post !

Few words about myself first - 6ft / 182 cm, 261 lbs / 118 kg (starting), 23-25%, bf 33yo male. Used to workout ( a lot ), torn left lateral muscle and had to quit, eventually lost interest and gained some wait over 2 years. Ate too much junk, and I feel like was already pre-diabetes with IR.
Now working out 3 times a week, once or twice doing basketball and also same for stationary bike at home - for cardio.

Currently I’m in day 13th and faced few obstacles (weight is 253 lb / 114kg).
Supplements I take:

• B vitamins
• Potassium
• Tumeric
• Enzymes
• ZMA
• Multivitamins
  (optionally - dmae, coq10).

I strictly follow everything, logging, read a lot before I started, so I believe my food quality is decent (eggs, bacon, nuts (brazilian/macadamia), salmon, sardines, cheeses, oil (olive, coconut), greens in fair amount).

Anyway, to questions now

1. Everyday I find it very-very difficult to force myself into eating, thus sometimes I feel foggy and fatigued - nothing too serious, just overlaziness. I believe some say its normal first few weeks, but again, I’m over 250lbs 6ft adult and I feel like something is not right when I eat 700-1200 cals a day. I always thought I should eat when I want, but I guess its not working on keto?

2. Ketone levels. I stared first day with 0.5 mmol/L, it gradually increased, now I’m in 3-3.8 mmol/L for the last few days (glucose 80-100). I think I’m doing too much IF? Thing is I wake up at 10-11AM and go to sleep at 2-2.30am (nature of my job), so my first meal is around 11-12AM and due to my very slow metabolism I have to take my last meal (Only relates to Keto - when was on fast cards I could it few hours before sleep and sleep well) around 19:00, so like every day I incorporate IF (16-18/8-6) . I believe this daily fasting state and small eating window causes ketones to climb? I know they should drop eventually once I adapt, but I’m still worried with this uptrend.

3. Even if it I small - most of the time I feel stuffed/bloated after eating. I tried increasing veggies or eat a normal (generally 30-40g / 1.5 oz spinach or kale per meal) amount - same thing. Even with my last meal at 19:00 and sleeping at 2AM like every other day I wake up with this taste of bile with my mouth, reflux, when I urgently need to drink water with some baking soda. Like I understand - there is a lot of bile produced trying to digest fats I eat? But why its not working …

So, I’m stuck in this circle
eating low with no appetite -> low energy and higher ketone level -> eat more and I feel stuffed and bloated no matter what. Yes, I take lemon juice + 1-2 tbsp of Apple Cider Vinegar before every meal and enzymes during.

And no, I can’t yet add MCTs, tried adding them twice - every time 10-15ml in the morning, and was diarrheaing entire day, so not ready for those just yet.

So my major concerns - eating very low, although I hit macros anyway, can’t (seem to) digest those small amounts I’m eating and (minor thing) growing ketone levels (due to not eating?). Trying of course to hit those 15-20g of fiber daily.
Please see pics (first pic - my 2nd week, pic one - macros during 1st and calories during 1st week)

[jeanindenver]

Good on ya for trying so hard! I’m relatively new, so hopefully others with more experience will chime in, they’re just not silly enough to be up at 4:30 am!

Everything will eventually work itself out. You probably do have “keto flu” which can last a while… many suggestions on this forum to handle that, but #1, drink more water.

I’ve had days when I just wasn’t interested in food. So that’s probably normal, at least for now.

What I’ve gleaned from research is find a way to eat more fats. I am loving fat bombs, and even though I eat 2 or 3 or even 4 if I’m particularly starving, I still feel better and losing a bit of weight. Find a recipe that works for you. I’m not big on chocolate, but if you are it will be even easier. Fat bombs are small, so they may be a perfect solution when your appetite is off.

Reflux isn’t fun; but there are ways to deal with that. Currently I am in love with sugar-free Tums. I used to take Zantac or Nexium but got off them. I recently learned that the way Tums and liquid antacids work is they float on top of your stomach contents and prevent splashback. That sounds much safer to me than pills that actually mess with your metabolism! Also don’t bend over within 1/2 hour of eating or drinking; and elevate your torso/head for sleep. I often sleep in my anti-gravity chair from Costco… that helps a lot!

Hang in there! It took me several weeks to really get into the groove. Give yourself credit and as they say, Keep Calm and Keto On!

[M_Graham_S]

It is normal to feel exhaustion the first couple of weeks. Electrolytes and water will help, but more than that, time.

You say that you’re hitting your macros. Is this by percentage or by grams? Because I don’t see how you can hit the macros required for a man your size only eating 700-1200 calories. If the bulk of the food is making you feel full, melted fat (butter on your veggies and steak, cabbage cooked in bacon grease are my favorites) can add a lot of bang while taking up relatively little space in your stomach. The added fat will give your body the energy it needs - eating too few calories will tell your body that it is going to starve, and your metabolism will slow accordingly.

Eat your fat!!

[Tigerbreath11]

I’d try doing away with the veggies and more bone broth. See how that works for you. In keto it’s about what works for each body. Everyone is different. So we are focused on shifting things to see what helps us.

[MarkGossage]

Trying of course to hit those 15-20g of fiber daily.

Why? This stood out to me…

[stanpanda]

@MarkGossage for better digestion of fats? too not fill bloated I guess

@M_Graham_S , percentage-wise of course
Yeah, I’m trying to eat fat, woke up today, first thing I did is 3 eggs+coconut oil + 50g of bacon and 25g of cheese+1.5oz of spinach… It was relatively small dish with ~700cals… I was forcing myself to eat, like literally, after first (!) bite. And that was my first meal after ~16 hours. Of course had mild bloating after, feeling stuffed, its been like 5 hours since my breakfast and I can’t even look at food yet, either its cookies or peaches, or avocado/shrims salad (listed carbs just to say I have no starving for carbs I used to eat before at all these days, which good - not for endless fruits, chips, hamburgers, ice creams - nothing. I don’t want to eat anything).

Trying to convince myself I need to hold for just one month and later it will get back to norm, without bloating or acid refluxes at nights, just my slow metabolism is getting used to digest fats this way.

@Tigerbreath11 will try, thing is its tastes ugly for me ( personal preference )
will try

@jeanindenver
Thanks a lot for the support. Yeah, I’m trying to sleep a bit on the higher side with more pillows. Keto bombs is a great idea, if I can replace MCTs with just coconut oil.
Still learning of course, but I think I’m past keto flu stage - head headaches first 3-4 days, serious fog and fatigue - I was ready, did drink a lot, took trace minerals and electrolytes, so its gone. Only this being stuff feeling left, but again, will try fighting through.

Glad I found this forum with so much information.

[DavyKOTWF]

Your calories are just too low. Pump them up to about 1700-1900 calories by adding some virgin olive oil, some cod liver oil, some coconut oil and some kerrygold butter. These are super healthy fats which your body will thank you for. I weigh 194lbs now and eating 1850 calories, but with a lot of good fat.

Also I saw no Magnesium. Get some Dr.'s Best High absorbable Magnesium at the least or some ReMag. Don’t buy Mag. Oxide. Also for a quick energy pump, get some Zipfizz…you can drink it now and thank me later.(said in an Arnold Schw. voice) That stuff is full of electrolytes and other great things, like B vitamins, etc. The orange flavor is incredible)
Did I miss it, or didn’t see your % of proteins. The two biggest mistakes people make on Keto, is their fat % is not high enough and/or their protein intake is TOO high. Don’t worry about not getting enough protein while lifting…google Bill Pearl.

The added calories and Magnesium and added high quality fats will give you more energy. Those fats I listed will add your approx. 500 calories and you won’t feel bloated. It’s okay to take 2 tablespoons of each of the oils and with 2 tbsp. of the butter, that could make an extra 200 calories for 700 extra, easily added fats. The fats will boost your mental acuity as well; brain fog gone.
I’ve been body building on and off for 45 years and it hasn’t hurt me to sometimes only get 60g of protein a day, though it seems in your case, it should be about 90g per day. Let us know how this regimen works.

[DiMo]

Some good responses here. I’ll just add a couple of thoughts to what’s already been said.

Our bodies (and gut bacteria) can take time to adjust from digesting a predominantly high carb diet to digesting a lot more fat. So given some time, your body will continue to adjust. In the meantime, some people find relief with ox bile supplements which can help you to better digest fats. This ought to help your stomach digest and empty more quickly. Maybe.

Also, many people find that having a goal to eat a certain amount of grams of fiber isn’t needed or helpful. Other people seem to need the added veggies. You might want to experiment with eating less fiber and see if that helps.

Good luck!

[stanpanda]

@DavyKOTWF

Hey, appreciate such a great input! Yeah, Ill try to work my calories way up, although its a bit tough to keep proteins up eating small, even calorie dense foods. Sources say for my lean body mass I should consume 100 to 150grams.

Regarding my macro % - its in the middle chart (chart 2) from my initial post, most of the time I’m close to 80% fat a day with protein hovering around 20% and carbs are around 2-3% (thing is I don’t count my green carbs from kale, broccoli, spinach, so all in all it should at up at around 5%, if we do count fibers on Keto (some say we don’t) ).

Thank you once again!

@DiMo

Hey, yes, I also thought about lowering veggies to just maybe 1-2 oz. a day, but now I’m getting concerned about my stool, its normal - but rare Once in 2-3 days, compared to previous couple of years 1-2/day. But, again, everyone’s different, I read a lot someone does it daily, others couple of times per week.

p.s.
One thing I don’t understand, is how to fit 2000 cals in to two meals, or even when - which is an ultimate goal, move onto 1 to 2 meals per day? From so many talks and reads around - looks ultra healthy and easy lifestyle

All in all, thank you all for the replies, added some confidence I’m heading in the right direction. Greatly appreciated!

[DavyKOTWF]

Stan, just TRY getting a mere 90g, 100g very tops, a day of protein. (the 100g is okay, but the 150g is way too much…that could be what is stalling you) I’ve done 28 days straight, getting 10g a day of protein and lost 28 lbs, 24 of it pure fat and only ONE lb of lean…while 3 lbs I suspect was old fecal matter. (this was on juice fasting and the only protein came from juicing broccoli) Three lbs a week at your weight is a tremendous and healthy way to go. More than that would pack back on quickly.
Almost forgot, yep, the days and there are many, that I struggle to get my protein, I take Fortress Super Advanced Whey protein drink…you can get it at Walmart or any good Grocery store. I usually take it in 2 drinks a day, half a scoop per drink. One full scoop is 60g.
Even with the upped calories, mostly from the good fats, you can lose 3 lbs a week…so picture yourself weighing about 215 three months from now.
You DID google Bill Pearl, right? lol Vegetarian body builder back in the day.

[stanpanda]

@DavyKOTWF

I did google a lot of people and read a lot

I like Thomas DeLauer and listening to Dr Berg time to time (though, I know some people consider his info controversial, especially regarding veggies intake) .

Also visited my gastroenterologist today, talking about Keto and stuff. I consider he knowledgeable about things, but she was sort of agains Keto lifestyle. I said I’m planning to make it long term, but she opposed I should stick to 3 months utmost as ‘it will damage your pancreas even further’.

The thing is I was diagnosed with IBS (Irritable Bowel syndrome) - I always feel fine, but whenever I have workouts that involve abdomen excercises, like any of them, I have diarrhea and bloating after for couple of days. After its gone. I can workout fine and intensively, but every time abdomen muscles involved IBS kicks in. No solutions found after almost two years, the only thing causing IBS to get triggered is pressure on my stomach area.

Also, eventually she said, I’ll have salt/calcium deposits in my body, which I tried to argue, but gave up and just decided Ill do bi-monthly full body/blood/ultrasounds checks and see from there.

Yesterday I forced myself into eating, ended up with 90-100g of protein and ~135g fat with barely 10g of carbs and felt just fine. So looks like upping calories and protein for now is a way to go

Thank you!

[DavyKOTWF]

You’re welcome! Although all I’ve learned is due to books written by everyone else, so thanks to them!
You might research magnesium and how it helps IBS.
Great, you’re on your way with around 90-100g and 135g fat!

[VirginiaEdie]

I’m going to add that you may not be that hungry at first because your body has to go through it’s glycogen stores, and then your body needs to learn how to use fat as it’s energy source, finally your intestinal flora needs to adjust to the new food source. These things take time. As your body becomes fat adapted you will find you won’t get full quite as quickly.

[stanpanda]

How can I lower my blood ketones level btw?

Its been 3 weeks and I’m always in 3-4.5 range, which seems a bit on the higher end.
Working out 4 times per week, taking enough cals, protein and fat, low carbs.
Tried upping carbs for few days (~50g), still same. Tried increasing protein - no changes. Currently I stick with 90-110g protein
130-140g fats
10-20g carbs (fibers included).

I also removed IF at all, in attempt to lower blood ketones.

[Jacymac]

Why do you need to lower your blood ketones?
Good work so far and for sticking with it to figure things out, it is worth it!

[stanpanda]

4 seems like a bit off from the sweet spot, no ?

Plus, blood tests are bad also, although I’m trying to eat a lot of spinach and red meat, I still get HCT at 22-28% range and Hemaglobin at 8-10 g/dl.
All in all I feel ok, little fatigued sometimes, but guess thats fine. Anyway, things are not looking too good on my blood work

[Madeleine]

I just came across a really interesting part of a recent Peter Attia podcast. He and Dom D’Agostino were talking about ketone tolerance (almost the same way you would talk about glucose tolerance). Apparently some people clear ketones much faster than others. Generally athletes use their ketones much more quickly, so I’m surprise that you’re not using the more quickly with all the workouts that you’re doing. In any case it might be worth a listen for you.

[Jacymac]

It seems that actual ketones readings are not that important. I don’t believe you lose more weight at a particular level. If you are showing some ketones then you are in ketosis and beyond that it is a bit academic.
It is a question that has been asked a few times without a very definitive answer, but this thread is useful to show the variations that people seem to have.
https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/high-ketone-levels-and-insulin-sensitivity/43741/14

There is also a possible link between the level and being in a fasted state, so it may be down to when you are measuring.
As far as the blood tests go, it is a bit early to be showing blood result progress as a result of being keto. Stick to the macros and get another test done in 3 months to see a positive difference.

To be honest I don’t, and never have, measured ketones. I know I am in ketosis because I am eating less than 20g carbs. Beyond that I don’t need the increased cortisol associated with stress from worrying about why my body is doing one thing rather than another!

[Jacymac]

As another point, it is also likely that whilst you are in ketosis, you may not yet be fat adapted. At that point your body will be using ketones more efficiently and therefore the number that you measure in your blood will reduce.
Other than sticking to your macros and being sure to eat enough calories, there isn’t much you can do to force this adaptation to speed up. At some point you will probably see your ketones levels drop and then you’ll know you are fat adapted.

[stanpanda]

Yeah, no matter what I’m sticking to this for another 5 weeks. Still having hard times feeding myself sufficiently, though I’m staying ~within macros (75-80% 20-25% <5%), but calories are quite low. For my LBM at ~195lbs I eat at around 1400-1800 cals (depends If I do IF on this particular day or not and taking 2 or 3 meals), taking into account I work out heavily 3-4 times a week (~2 hour sessions combined weights+cardio), playing baskterball for ~90mins on sundays and stationary bike another 3-5 times/week. Working out that much should use all of my ketones… I thought so.

Its been over 3 weeks on Keto, I feel great nevertheless 90% of the time. Although, I have to admit, rest of the time I am sedentary. Extra cortisol from stressing too much on my bi-daily blood tests definitely doesn’t help

I can work out without cravings for carbs, I can easily fast for 20-24 hours during my IF days, stress-free, I’m not fatigued too much. Thought these are the main signs I’m adopted.