Has dr Fung changed idea on longer extended fasts?

#1

I just gave a quick read to this document on fasting by dr. Fung.


I got the link from another thread and I think it comes from Fung’s site.

Maybe I am reading too much into this, but he seems now to be putting way more accent on alternate day 24 to 42 h fasts. Almost nothing, and only tangential, is said on the more extended fasts. And very often when he refers to fasting he calls it intermittent fasting.
Is that true, to your knowledge, and if so why do you think he’s moving in this direction?

(Karen) #2

ADF is awesome. Meagan Ramos also used this extensively and successfully with clients!

K

(bulkbiker) #3

He was recently pictured with a patient who was on day 21 of a fast.
However I would imagine that as he advises any extended fasting be medically supervised that he is as we say in the UK “covering his arse” about advising longer fasts in case someone tries a 376 fast as per Angus Barbieri on their own.

(charlie3) #4

It seems to me there need to be important reasons to fast beyond 36 hours and the reasons get more compelling as the number of days increases. My personal situation is that keto and exercise got me so lean so fast that there’s no justification for anything more than my current routine of skipping breakfasts and doing a 36 hour fast on Saturday. I’m careful to keep calories up so I don’t loose any more weight, a nice problem to have.

Today happens to be Saturday. I’m sipping black coffee and may be later some flavored water. Oddly I have almost no hunger pangs on Saturdays but almost always have some hunger on the other morninga in antipation of lunch.

(Doug) #5

For his Facebook group, they don’t advise long fasts, and talking about fasts of more than 7 days is forbidden. Presently, all other things being equal, I think the current recommendation is 3 fasts per week, 36 hours each, for weight loss. It’s a very general thing, though, and one’s individual circumstances can argue for substantial changes.

@MarkGossage - right on, Fung is not going to be recommending long fasts for people outside his direct care - he has no control over their approach, whether they are fat-adapted or not, whether they know about the importance of electrolytes, care with refeeding, etc.

Charlie, the only general thing I see is the benefits of autophagy (my favorite subject and a thing we know all too little about). I’m thinking that no matter what, a fast of 4 to 6 days every 3 months, or better yet, every month, has a lot to be said for it. If one has stuff like cancer or Alzheimer’s going on, or is at increased risk for them, then I think the advisability increases.

If we’d all done ‘keto and exercise’ over the years, few of us would have the problems we have. :slightly_smiling_face: Kudos to you for getting there! Skipping breakfasts and the 36 hour fast once a week sounds perfect to me, from a maintenance standpoint, and I imagine myself doing very close to that exact same thing when I get to my goal weight. Black coffee and no breakfast - this has been me for a long, long time, so it totally fits.

#6

the benefits of autophagy (my favorite subject and a thing we know all too little about)

I am very interested in that too, because I would like to avoid loose skin the most possible. I am just at the beginning of the journey, and I have a long way to go. Do you have reads to recommend? I would like to know more, especially on how to time fasting for optimal results. For now I am thinking of doing sometimes 42h and sometimes72h, depending on how I feel, but I wouldn’t mind going longer, like a week or two.

(Doug) #7

Margot, I haven’t read any books about autophagy. I just googled "books about autophagy’ and there are a fair number of them, mostly written in the last 10 years. I’ve looked at studies and experiments, and online discussions about the subject. We’re really in our infancy as far as understanding it, and if there is a “consensus” view it will likely be changing as time goes forward.

In mice - creatures that have a much faster metabolism, and that will usually be dead after fasting for 3 or 4 days, autophagy is still increasing in some tissues at 48 hours of fasting. We know that autophagy is quite sensitive to insulin levels, and the studies on fasting humans I’ve seen show a decline in insulin (good for autophagy) into the 4th or 5th day of fasting, and then usually a slight rebound. So, my opinion is that getting to 4 or 5 full days of fasting is a good thing for us people.

There are also benefits that come to us during the ‘refeeding’ period after a fast, so in the end it may be that 2 fasts of 5 days are actually better for us than 1 fast of 10 days - I just do not know.

Projecting from the mice - not saying we should fast halfway to the death point. :slightly_smiling_face: I wish we knew when autophagy peaked in all our various tissues.

There are other things that affect autophagy, even our own individual genetics. In many of our tissues - especially the ‘non-mitotic’ ones where the cells cannot divide and multiply to dilute the consequences of some cells getting old, damaged, faulty, etc., autophagy is always going on (or supposed to be) at a low, basal level. Nerve tissue is this way, and problems with the “cleaning out” that autophagy does leads to build-ups of the damaged amino acid components like amyloid plaques and misfolded tau proteins - heavily implicated in Alzheimer’s Disease.

Since we really do not yet know what is the generalized most efficient use of autophagy for humans, and are even less on a sure footing for a given indivdual, I would err on the long side, to be safe, versus the short side.

If one is pretty lean, then fasting for multiple days will often be a real problem - and I don’t know what I will do if I ever get to that physical state.

(charlie3) #8

Okay, to finish my week, I’ll probably end the Saturday fast by going to bed early. Sunday morning I wake as early as I want. There will be 24 oz of strong chiiled coffee in the frig whilch gets a few squirts of stevia, 1/4 cup of whipping cream, a bunch of ice and into a 30 oz stainless mug with the appropriate product name of Bubba. I’ll sip on that while I turn 5 large eggs, 3 strips of bacon, onion, mushrooms, garlic etc. into a very filling beakfast. The second meal will be my usual dinner, salad eaten earlier than work days, then start it all again on Monday.

Since starting keto about 4 months ago I’ve had zero snacks and zero cheats. 3 meals and 2 snacks X 7 days a week = 35 times eating a week. My keto practice is 12 times a week. I feel full all the time except for a few hours in the morning before lunch. I track calories carefully to make sure I get enough and don’t loose more weight.

#9

Margot, there’s an EdX course on autophagy (free). I can’t link to it now but I think that should be enough for you to find it. I think it might be on the recent research that got a Nobel prize.

#10

Here’s the link: https://www.edx.org/course/autophagy-research-behind-the-2016-nobel-prize-in-physiology-or-medicine

(Doug) #11

:slightly_smiling_face: Thank you, Madeleine and Ann - looks good.

#12

I think it’s more because that document is part of the intro for IDM patients/counselees, so it’s aimed at people who are starting the fasting journey. I get IDM counseling and they still recommend 3-4 day fasts once you have several shorter ones under your belt.

(Todd Allen) #13

Here’s an article which I found very helpful in understanding autophagy. It’s science heavy but easier reading than most research papers. Unfortunately, it can’t tell us what to do to optimize autophagy in ourselves but it provides a pretty good primer on what is known.

http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2013/04/19/autophagy-the-housekeeper-in-every-cell-that-fights-aging-2/

And there are many other great articles on the site. The site focuses mostly on caloric restriction but also addresses protein and carbohydrate restriction and a great many other things of importance to healthful aging.

#14

Dr. Fung, as a practicing physician, has to be conservative and cautious in his recommendations. His license is on the line.

We are very litigatious, I bet his malpractice insurance premium is astronomical, given his nontraditional treatment modalities and extra curricular activities…