Gary Taubes explains fiasco that led to NuSi study problems

#1

I listened to this podcast today, and was pretty disappointed hearing about the series of events that led to the NuSi study problems. What a fiasco.

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/the-llvlc-show-episode-1223-gary-taubes-shares-an-update-on-the-future-of-the-nutrition-science-initiative-nusi/27532

Keto clinical trial
(Cheryl Meyers) #2

Me too. Sad that NUSI is now underfunded.

(Paul Jaeger ) #3

Apparently it isnā€™t so easy to design and implement an experiment to explain the empirical evidence in a way that preserves the egos of scientists. I imagine that when you are confronted with evidence that the world doesnā€™t work the way you thought, digging in your heels is easier than trying to embrace your fears.

(Dustin Cade) #4

looks like its a run of three Episodes 1222, 1223, 1224 -

(Dustin Cade) #5

Science should have no egosā€¦ but alas even scientists are humanā€¦

(Patrick B.) #6

Scientists should be following the research and not trying to get the research to match their hypothesis. Itā€™s fine that an experiment disproved your beliefā€¦ Thatā€™s a successful experiment, not a failure!!!

#7

I agree that the results are what they are. And we all need to learn from experiments. What Iā€™m concerned though is the political resultā€¦not agreeing on how to design the experiment, disbanding of team because of not agreeing on experiment design to begin with, conclusions inconsistent with hypothesis, etc.

The subjects were given low carb meals, but in their test regimen they ate breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snackā€¦if I were on that eating regimen, I wouldnā€™t lose weight, and very possibly gain weight, as it would encourage insulin secretion. Without a fasting windowā€¦constant nibbling throughout the dayā€¦insulin is provoked.

Iā€™d like to see the testing repeated with no snacks, and with IF. Iā€™d also like to see another test with ad libidum feeding, which resembles a whole lot more what happens in real life.

(Kathy Meyer) #8

The timing is also key for me. I did initially lose weight on a ketogenic diet, but after about 30 pounds (of 125 needed to lose), it all stopped, and in fact, I began to gain weight still eating the same macros. Even adding IF stopped working after about 10 pounds lost. Only fairly frequent extended fasts of 3 days or more is how I continue to lose weight. Gary Taubes mentioned people like me in one of his books (older post-menopausal women who have dieted most of their lives) whose metabolisms could be particularly intransigent and resistant to weight loss. But he didnā€™t bring in the tool of extended fasting at that point, and I believe it is the only way I will ever get to my goals. I believe only very long-term research can explain the long-term damage (and reversals) that we do to our metabolisms.

(Stickin' with mammoth) #9

Scientists like to CLAIM they are unbiased but Iā€™ve always said that science plods forward slowly at the pace of egos and fear.

@xandtrek My experience is similar although I havenā€™t enjoyed the big M yet. Trouble is, I canā€™t fast longer than a day without inducing a cortisone-insulin stress response in my body. Exercise does the same thing. And whatā€™s confounding as all hell is that Iā€™m eating the same food that caused that first 20 pounds to melt away like Antarctica in global warming.

Iā€™m experimenting with 0 - 15 carbs but I miss green stuff. (sigh)

#10

The problem with adding in fasting to the experiment is it would add another factor and then youā€™d have to wonder if the fasting itself was what gave success, not the keto.

Itā€™s like how Dr. Lustig used to note that around the time that Atkins diets became popular again in the U.S., a high carb diet became popular in Japan, and they both worked and both worked about the same. What was the same was the elimination or reduction of fructose and sucrose though. This is a question that comes up for keto as an extension, ā€œis it the low carb thatā€™s helping? Is it the high fat? Or is it simply that it gets rid of sugar or some other problematic element along the way?ā€ There are experiments that have indicated thereā€™s more to it now, but thatā€™s the kind of thing you have to look out for and one reason multi-factor tests are problematic.

The thing is, a number of experiments are still necessary to isolate many different factors and test out how they work and how they work together as well.

#11

Fasting is a broad subject. I would have at least liked to see this experiment run without snacking all day long and let participants eat ad libidum during meal times. Just removing the snacks is a form of fasting. I donā€™t think having them eat breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, dinner, snack was the right thing to do as the only variable to test. It doesnā€™t characterize insulin secretion under normal fasting (considering that not snacking all day long is a normal eating pattern, not an extreme fasting regime).

#12

The pattern reflects common eating habits of the populace, I believe. That was probably the idea there, even if itā€™s not ideal.

Again, although many of us donā€™t do this, if you take out snacks you raise the leave open ā€œwas it the keto that helped? Or was it removal of snacks?ā€

#13

I would need to see data back up that snacking is a common populace trend. Common in USA only, or other countries?

Having a control group eating SAD versus treatment group eating keto, no snacking, and ad libidum eating during meals, would show effect of keto.

#14

Fair enough, but that is the at least ā€˜common believed patternā€™, due to it being essentially the ā€˜advised patternā€™ (Breakfast, mid morning snack, Lunch, afternoon snack, Dinner, Dessert). Thatā€™s also essentially what my kids daycare follows (though they donā€™t do dinner and dessert as thatā€™s outside the time frame).

But you see this idea in places here: http://www.webmd.com/diet/obesity/features/6_meals_a_day#1 http://www.thedietchannel.com/AskTheExpert/nutrition-healthy-eating/Meal-Frequency-How-often-should-you-eat.htm

And other places (in fact, I typically hear advocates of IF refer to the 5-6 meal day other people recommend).
I canā€™t find much data on anyone actually polling people to find out how much people do eat a day though.

(Crow T. Robot) #15

Or, as Max Planck famously said, ā€œScience advances one funeral at a time.ā€

(Stickin' with mammoth) #16

Hahahahaha! Wait a minuteā€¦

(Michael Wallace Ellwood) #17

I hope you never feel forced to go that way, but good luck if you try it. I might have to try it too one day. (Still losing at the moment, but a long way to go). I can IF ok, but the one extended fast I tried was very hard, and didnā€™t last long. Iā€™ll try again one day, but I have to make sure that (somehow) there will be the fewest possible extraneous interruptions and disturbances that might throw me off somehow.

#18

So, I am just reading this postā€¦are you still trying the extended fasting and has it had the hoped-for effects?
I am trying to make necessary changes but feel there is too much contradiction and or lack of studies that can give sufficient evidence of what works best for women as you described (that would be me).

Thanks for your post!