Frustrated!

#31

Nope, just linking to a well cited post by a highly respected member of the nutrition community. One who I believe was even a 2KD guest.

Offering someone who is struggling advice to do more of the same isn’t the best kind of advice. The fact is that a person who is 60-lbs overweight can and usually is “high fat” without eating high fat. Hell, even Phinney makes this point. A lot of the people here are keto advocates because it worked for them, and that’s great. But there are a lot of people who don’t see results doing what you are defending, what about them? N=1 right? Why does the OP not deserve some ideas to explore?

#32

PSMF is safe, effective and DEFINITELY ketogenic. I’m confused about your fear mongering, care to defend your position?

(Alec) #33

Ketones come from burning fat. Protein raises insulin levels. High insulin prevents fat burning and hence ketone production.

I am not against new ideas, but high protein looks suspect to me, and in my opinion is not ketogenic.

(Ron) #34

@Rian- Trying to understand here. Ketogenic is the ability of the body to process ketones from fat sources as opposed to glucose from carbohydrate and protein sources if I am not mistaken. In order for this to be accomplished, the availability avenues to get this glucose from have to be reduced which will cause the body to seek alternative sources to produce energy. Upon finding this new source, that body will make adjustments (adaptation) necessary to efficiently operate this new process.
So if the body is able to find glucose in high levels of protein then how is this ketosis?

(Jay AM) #35

By your same argument, fuck keto. Let’s recommend low fat, high carb, moderate lean proteins. Or, how about being fruititarian. Oh wait…there’s a reason we don’t do that here. First off, this is the newbie section of the forum. Your advice isn’t newbie oriented at all. It widely conflicts with all other offered advice available in this forum. Some of us spend a lot of time working on questions people have as they struggle with keto. And, with the information we provide we can effectively help people get back on track successfully and feeling good. Your own topic on PSMF already has plenty of good reasons not to recommend it off hand to just any random person with the conversation you’ve had there. It’s clear you have something against what you deem “excess fats.” You think you’ve found the key to ending stalls with a protocol you follow. Yes, that is your n=1. Meanwhile, in this forum we have n=many for what is generally advised here. Including ending stalls. We already know from past studies that reducing any 1-2 of the macronutrients will result in some sort of weight change usually trending downward. So, of course PSMF might reduce weight on some level. That doesn’t make it sustainable or recommended for everyone.

(Candy Lind) #36

Allie is right. CICO is bullshit. I was losing almost nothing at 260 pounds and eating under 1200 calories. I increased to 1300 - WHOOSH. When I stopped losing again (around 240), I increased my calories again and WHOOSH. My metabolism is improving; I’m currently 230; I eat 1300-1500 consistently and while not losing, I’m not gaining either. This is what the experts mean when they say you have to eat enough to overcome your insulin resistance barrier. I’m adding in some extended fasting now to get the scales moving again.

I feel blessed to have found out how to lose and not be constantly hungry. I don’t care if it comes off slowly, as long as I don’t have to starve. It’s all about beating back the insulin, and then finding what works for YOUR N=1. Don’t give up hope, and don’t blame it on your BF - I hope he’s in your corner! :heart_eyes:

#37

The body does no such thing. You might find this interesting:

#38

We? You can offer any advice you want. What you can’t do is censor someone else. You can (and obviously do) disagree with what I’m saying but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong or that it’s not something the OP might want to consider. That is ultimately the decision of the OP. If you want to decide for her because what I’m saying is not “newbie” enough then perhaps you should send her a PM with a warning to ignore unconventional ideas shared on this forum. You seem proud of the work you do here and I’m sure you have helped many people as I know I have. Perhaps we speak to different audiences but that is the beauty of the Internet forum after all.

(Katie) #39

Sorry to here your frustrations! I’ve had a similar situation, although not as extreme, my husband has lost three times more than me. Although I’m proud of him, it’s hard not to be a little jealous so I understand where you’re coming from.
Sounds like you’re tracking macros and keeping your calories in check as well as drink lots of water, so I think it’s unusual that you haven’t lost any weight over such a long period of time. Have you tried using ketone test strips to ensure you are actually in ketosis? The only other thing I can think of that hasn’t been mentioned is possibly checking with a doctor. Thyroid problems are common in women and can make it difficult to lose weight so it might be worth getting checked out just to be on the safe side.
Best of luck!

(Jay AM) #40

The problem with ketone test strips is they don’t actually say whether someone is in ketosis or not. They only show wasted ketones. We don’t want to waste ketones, we want to use them. They were made for diabetics with high blood sugar levels who definitely were not in ketosis to check for ketoacidosis. I’m not sure when or who decided that they were useful for testing ketosis but, that individual needs a slap with a steak for spreading the rumor.

(Alec) #41

I love this. A wonderful illustration of CICO thinking being incorrect. Anybody suggesting to you that you have an “energy balance” problem is stuck in CICO thinking that is not helpful. It may be technically correct (as you can’t change the laws of thermodynamics) but it is not helpful as to what to do next.

CICO will tell you to expend more calories (ie go do more exercise) or eat less: both of these will exacerbate your problem. It will result in your body shutting down even more (spending even less calories and not using bodyfat). Keto thinking says feed it with more fat calories, and it will burn them, and as you get to fat adapted with a lot of fat coming in, it will start burning your bodyfat (overnight, for example). Hence weight loss.

However, this chain is dependent on your body saying to itself “ah, I have plenty of resources to burn here”. If you don’t feed it, it won’t work.
Cheers
A

(Jay AM) #42

I’m not sure when people will understand this concept. I’m a fat gal, I’ve been told to exercise more and eat less for a long time. If that worked, I’d be a model by now. A lot of us would be.

This was a good conversation on calories.

(Alec) #43

Spot on, Jay. It’s counterintuitive, it is against the conventional wisdom, and doctors have been threatened with being struck off because they said this. But it makes it no less true.

I am the same: I tried calorie counting and low fat for most of my life, and surprise surprise, I lost and gained the same 15kg about 10 times, and I struggled and struggled and struggled each time. And I ended up worse each time.

I go keto: lost 30kg, and I am still going, easily, no strain, never being hungry, and eating bacon. How great is that!

#44

Thank you for your information @Alecmcq and @J_A-M

I am keen to get this straight, as I think this is a key point, and may be a problem for me.

I understand the CICO method doesn’t work, and I REALLY don’t care about calories- I only check them incidentally out of inteerst when logging in MFP for carb counting. BUT I find that the keto WOE is so satiating that I just don’t get that many calories in. Here’s an example from today;

Didn’t do a IF today- was hungry at 9 so had 2 eggs with HWC and butter, a couple mushrooms fried in butter on the side.

Hungry again at 12- so had an avocado with loads of olive oil- struggled to fit that in. Has planned to have bacon but just can’t face it.

Know I will be hungry agan for dinner, so all good there, but looking back through my diary I can see I have rarely eaten more than 5-600 calories in a meal- and that is a stretch. That will put me at 1300 ish cals for the day. I think I would probably ‘do better’ at about 1800- (169cms, 88kgs), but I find I cannot EAT that much. It’s so filling!

I can see the science, it is the phsyical act of eating that much fat in a day that is making it tricky. It’s not revulsion (far from it- butter…mmmm), its a ‘listening to my body’s hunger signals’ thing.

Does this capacity improve over time? I would love to be one of those people who eats a spoonful of butter, just not there yet!

#45

Update…after I wrote ‘I would love to be one of those people who eats butter’…I thought I would confirm whether I am or not. One of those people, that is.

Fired up four rashers of bacon, then put a slab of cold butter on each one, and Ate. Them. All. Up.

So apparently I am one of those people now. :wink:

Learning learning…

(Kathrine) #46

yeah the body doesn’t work like that…
It all depends on hormones and survival mechanisms… :slight_smile:
But it’s easier to get to your goal when you know how the body reacts to different things…

(Raven) #47

Hi love! I can relate too much. My boyfriend lost 9 pounds this past week (we’re on week two) and I only lost 3. Guys lose weight so quickly, I’ve learned the hard way. However, I’m huge. I weigh 289 (Just got under the 290’s) and what helped me compared to before, was upping my calories. I used to have anorexia and growing up my life was based around counting calories. Now that I’m learning to up my calories and start to eat more (like 1600-1700), I notice I’m dropping measurements on the daily. I literally used to eat 1,000-1,300 Cals to lose weight because we’re conditioned to believe we must eat this way. But on Keto, eat a LOT of fat. I mean it. If you stall, eat more fat. I promise I’ve been where you are in past ‘diets’ or weight loss journey. Eating more has helped so much. Also, green tea! I love drinking green tea, with a tablespoon of apple cidar Vinegar, and a sprinkle of cinnamon for the health benefits. Each of those aids in weight loss and metabolism health. Definitely try it! I love it. I hope the weight loss kicks in for you lovely. I know the struggle all too well. <3

Edit: I also IF every day. I don’t eat until around 6-7 pm to about 9 and then I’m usually full all day. I eat enough calories within those hours though. Just two heavy fat meals.

(Alec) #48

It looks like this could be an experimental process. My experience is that some fats go down easier than others. For example I am getting a lot of fat in through having cream in my coffee rather than milk. And I tend to ask for a side of butter with every meal (home or out). And fat bombs that are sweet (ish).

Back to butter… one of my new favourite dishes/sides is raw spinach with a solid butter “dressing”, meaning chopped up butter. Absolutely yum!!! Butter I think supports other foods so well, and I think helps everything go down well.

(Ken) #49

That’s a pretty good explanation. It’s nice to see it being reiterated since it’s been around for over two decades but seems to have been lost as many current gurus of “Nutty Keto” have conviently ignored it. I’ve always disagreed with the absurd nutty keto low protein, absurdly high fat macros. The article reinforces the Evolutionary Macro of 60/35/5%, which is then eaten to satiety. IMO, the real reason the nutty low protein macro is pushed has more to do with an anti meat eating agenda rather than actual biochemistry.

(Ken) #51

It sounds like you’re both still depleting glycogen. After that happens, a one to two pound fat loss per week is normal and healthy.