Fire in a Bottle - The ROS Theory of Obesity and The Proton Theory


(PJ) #81

Palm oil is red and has a very specific flavor.
I agree cocoa butter is not ideal at all for savory foods.
Beef tallow has a chunk of stearic acid does it not?

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #82

Everything has its own unique flavour and aroma (and colour). Every different fat complements other ingredients - or not. I presume we each have individual preferences that influence what we consider acceptable. My great mix may be your culinary disaster. I’d never put red palm oil in my coffee nor cacao butter on my chipotle salad.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #83

There are different kinds of palm oil. I went ahead and ordered some white palm oil that’s supposed to be fairly neutral. We’ll see, I’m sure I’ll be able to use it somehow :slight_smile:

From grass fed beef, sure. From corn fed cattle? No idea. Maybe, maybe not.
I’m using butter from pastured cows. At least that’s affordable, and butter has some stearic acid too.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #84

Orange ‘palm oil’ is made from the flesh, white ‘palm oil’ (ie palm kernel oil) is made from the seeds. Palm oil is extracted by cold press. My guess is that kernel oil is extracted like any other seed oil - high pressure, high temp and/or solvents.

Palm kernel oil is widely used in the food industry. I suspect because it has little intrinsic flavour of its own. So, yes, ‘fairly neutral’, ie tasteless.

(PJ) #85

Is the oil of the seed the same in makeup as the oil of the flesh I wonder.


I’ve never used palm oil before either - and sustainable palm oil isn’t cheap (but I’ve not yet priced it out as I have 2 pound of CB atm). Plus, I’m enjoying the theobroma brainz experiment and have realized that I will never use the quantity of CB required for enough stearic acid according to the theory anyway (equivalent of 4 oz day - 8 tblsp?). Though I am trying to also increase my butter usage along with this, the total would be 4 tblsp/2 oz on average I’d expect.

Being that much of the palm oil still used in industrial foods and sold for domestic use is produced via horrific destruction of rainforest habitats for plantations (with catastrophic tragedies for orangutans and other creatures as reported by many investigations on env impact) - it’s really impt to know where it’s sourced.

Sustainable palm oil does exist! One example is the Nutiva brand, only from small family farms. And even some large corporations are switching to it. Intriguingly, it’s considered the most sustainable plant oil as it requires less land to produce - and half as much land as coconut oil requires.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #87

Palm oil.

Palm kernal oil.

(Utility Muffin Research Kitchen) #88

You might want to look further into palm oil and environmental damage. There are reports that coconut oil is just as bad, and soy oil even worse as soy farming needs a lot more area relative to the fat output. A lot of the public focus is driven by the food industry. With the demonizing of saturated fats came a publicity campaign that made palm oil and coconut oil look bad. I always wanted to look further into that but never had the time, but I suspect that the real culprits might be the ones not receiving a lot of public attention.

There is cold pressed organic palm oil (which is what I bought). We’ll see what we can do with it.

(Bob M) #89

Yes. Ruminants have a trick. If you feed them PUFAs, the bacteria in their gut changes it to saturated fat. This is unlike chickens and pigs, which do not have this trick. Thus, cattle and other ruminants are not exactly what they ate, but chickens and pigs are. This is also where the farm bill and the like come into play, as corn and soy remains are overwhelming (in the US) so get fed to chickens and pork. We are therefore getting many more PUFAs from chicken and pork than before, say 50 years ago.

What I’ve noticed trying to eat high saturated fat is that my blood ketones are not really changing at all (0.4 this morning, 0.2 mmol/l after my workout, Keto Mojos), but my breath ketones (via a first-generation ketonix) are way higher. I normally run in the 20s-30s, rarely in the 40s, and yesterday I got a 43 and today I got a 51 (after exercise). To put that into perspective, the last time I got over 50 was September of last year. I’ll have to see if this trend continues.

(Bob M) #90

Other things I’ve noticed. The shea butter I bought is not that hard at room temperature, which means it’s likely not that high in stearic acid. For instance, I bought the 90% stearic acid from Fire in a Bottle, made my own ghee, and added the stearic acid as per the directions. If this cools to near room temp, it get super hard immediately. It’s so hard, in fact, that you really have to gently reheat when adding to food. I added some last night to my food and ended up eating chunks of it, even after mixing hot food into it for a while. This was using the microwave, so I might have to go old school and use a pan. So, I likely won’t use the shea butter anymore.

I experienced an extreme amount of lack of hunger at first. I THINK it’s less now, but I’m not sure. It’s hard to tell, with fasting, eating different types of saturated fat, etc.

When I do eat more saturated fat, I seem to feel better. I have more energy, feel as if I’m gaining more muscle mass and losing waist fat. I really need to find my measuring tape, so I can confirm. If DEXA scans weren’t so expensive and hard to find, I’d get these done.

(GINA ) #91

I have never actually seen stearic acid, but could it be broken into small bits and taken like a supplement? It seems like it takes a lot of effort to cook anything with it, and what does it do to the flavor & texture? Would it be easier just to cook with butter, ghee, or tallow (‘normal’ and easy) and take a couple of tablespoons of stearic acid on the side if you want it?


You know what I am always wondering when it comes to ruminants - just like we have caused damage to our microbiome, what if we have done the same to cattle? What if their bacteria is no longer as efficient as before and/or has been replaced by different cultures? Could we, modern-agriculture wise, have caused this?

(PJ) #93

The stearic sounds cool… I have grass-fed-beef tallow here, and my plan is to gently melt a pot of it and dump it into silicone molds, like I did with the cocoa butter and cocoa. You can choose molds that contain the amount you might want to use at a time (from 1 tsp to 3/4 cup, and every option in between). I’d think that might be needed for really hard stuff like the stearic. I’d love to try it but my job hunt is going poorly so $ for anything at all is unworkable (only have tallow due to a friend). What does it taste like??

(Central Florida Bob ) #94

The Wiki entry says the melting point of stearic acid is 69.3 °C (156.7 °F) which seems really hot to me. It’s far beyond any temperature in our bodies. It seems the only way we could get that through the intestinal barrier is by either mechanically making it tiny little particles or (I’m guessing) bile dissolving it, if dissolve is the right word, and getting it into circulation.

It makes me wonder how much we’re really absorbing in our experiments. I put it in hot coffee, but it has to be freezing back out as the coffee cools.

(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #95

:hot_face: On the other hand, cacao butter melts in my mouth at a considerably lower temp. Stearic acid content, what 35% or so? @ctviggen Does the Fire in a Bottle 90% stearic acid melt in your mouth or not? If not, then I think @CFLBob makes a pertinent point.

(Doug) #96

@RightNOW, @Don_Q - I read through all the blog posts, and it’s very interesting stuff indeed. Don’t remotely have a handle on it - need to go through a few more times and read all the posts in this thread here. I think Brad Marshall did a good job presenting it - it certainly would turn some pretty-well-accepted things on their head, and/or perhaps provide further explanation of how things really work on a cellular/molecular level.

(Windmill Tilter) #97

Same. I don’t have a handle on it, but it’s definitely interesting.

For me at least, I think it falls into the category of interesting but not actionable (as far as the croissant diet is concerned). I won’t be buying industrial stearic acid to add to perfectly good butter, and I won’t be spending $25lb on cocoa butter. Plain ol’ $2.00/lb hamburger and $3.00/lb butter seem to get the job done just fine, and that’s what I’ve been eating anyway. I tried significantly upping carbs this week and it didn’t go particularly well.

That said, it does reinforce my preference for beef over pork and chicken. Pork sausages and pork shoulder will be dropping further down the menu this year, and I’ll be giving wider berth to olive oil and avocado oil. Maybe it is somewhat actionable after all come to think of it… :slight_smile:

Definitely worth the time I spent reading about it so far. :+1:


I have a bag of cocoa? butter from making “white chocolate” for my husband’s x-mass dessert list. :wink: I don’t know if it’s cocoa or cacao since the label is only in Slovene, but I’m thinking it’s cocoa. It’s very hard, like chocolate… I do have to use it for smth, will this be ok?


I have - that’s why I mentioned palm plantations take half the amount of land that coconut ones do for the same amount of oil production. The destruction of orangutan homeland is real, and well documented, and though didn’t make the headlines much, public outrage did successfully influence the formation of a sustainable production council in 2014. Yes, there’s been lots of demonization of sat fats in general. The recent film called The Fat Documentary features Nina Teicholz and others on the subject, it’s really good.


Looks promising! The deodorized cocoa butter is more golden, the raw cacao butter is pale, almost white. But then again, your photo on my computer screen may not be showing me the true color…

Technically, according to the croissant diet guy, the amount of stearic acid daily needed would be a 4oz serving/8 tblsp. That’s A LOT. I’m only taking in 1-2 tbsp cocoa butter with my coffee.

But it’s for neurotrophic reasons (the anandamide, PEA, and other stuff) - which is my new direction that came about by coincidence.