Fire in a Bottle II, lipedema, adipaging, twinkie-fat

hyperlipid
fire-in-a-bottle
ros-is-the-signal
lipedema
the-croissant-diet

(PJ) #1

I am going to make a few posts on this thread as they are about different topics and I don’t want to write a book all in one.

Previous cranky forum members griping at each other got my first thread on this topic closed, so please beat each other up privately and not in my thread this time ok. :smiley:

First post topic: LIPEDEMA

My family “has” this syndrome/condition, although it is “maybe” familial but no clear evidence it always is or has to be.

Lipedema allegedly affects more than 10% of women in the USA and other western countries. That’s huge! Allegedly mostly women. And hormone surges exacerbate it, so probably some high-female hormone is contributing. It also sometimes seems cultural or regional.

But nobody knows yet even 60 years after it was discovered. I personally suspect that aside from fats, there is a mineral relationship, either in pervasively toxic (lead) or in sub-acute chronic deficiency. Unfortunately since the AMA and related powers that be (TPTB) verrrrrry carefully refuse to do much research on this, and avoid it to the degree of not even teaching about it in medical school despite that insane estimated number of people afflicted, we have no diagnoses – hence we also have no map of who/where in order to better work toward nailing down whether regional issues (where nutrient issues can be seen in patterns) are also in play. It was named in the 1940s by the Mayo Clinic.

It is known around the world medically. But it is not taught in USA medical school. So when that doctor tells a fat woman whose ass is 2 or more sizes bigger than her top half that she is clearly just not following his (bad) diet, he’s ignorant.

Because bad food will give you a gut first or additionally. When you go bottom-wide instead of top-thick – and lipedemics are often bizarrely lean comparatively in their head/neck/hands/feet/upper torso/sometimes arms – it’s usually a sign of lipedema. When you get to the point of a woman who looks like she’s wearing stuffed british horse riding pants – the bottom’s just much bigger than the top, not just a little, hormones ‘widen the hips’ but not THIS much if healthy – or has “tree trunk legs” it’s a sign.

But because of the way lipedemics store fat they may actually have a waistline, they may take shoulder-headshot photos where they look 250# leaner, they may even be athletic and bizarrely limber and physically fit compared to someone even much lighter than they are.

When the doctor sees a very fat woman with this storage pattern and suggests we basically gut someone to prevent their ability to intake much or in some surgery forms even fully digest food, he’s ignorant. It’s not his fault. I see doctors online who have – just in the last several years – finally become aware of it, and they’re asking each other, “Well but so… so what do I tell my patient? What do I have them do? I mean are you saying there is NOTHING we can do?!”

The answer is “choose better grandparents” and “don’t let yourself get fat.” Great answer right. The docs are very frustrated. Try being the patient!

Lipedema, seriously oversimplified, but then remember we are greatly ignorant about it or it would not be a “no known cure” situation still:

In a nutshell, “there is something wrong with the fat cells.” Particularly their “membranes” or at least the way the adipose tissue functions. It is stored far away from the organs – pelvis down, occasionally upper arms maybe 30% of the people.

The fat is NOT budged by diet or exercise. (Note: I do believe the fibrous tissue supporting it, and some of the inflammation and edema, can reduce though.)

Apoptis does not always seem to happen on schedule, although this may not be true, it’s unclear as fat cells live a long time and accumulate even when they DO die on time.

The cell membranes appear faulty and the cells “leak” and/or do not have functional “respiration” for water, for toxins, and the result is that where they accumulate (which possibly by coincidence coincides with the highest marrow areas, and I mention this as the macrophages created there differ some) it’s basically “a toxic swamp.”

Ironically more fat cells are created or sent there to help deal with this and dragged into it, more fluid accumulates there to cool the massive inflammation, the fluid (edema) (which is a protein-water) increases and the protein self-builds scaffolding to support the tissue, which makes it even larger so it can hold even more fat cells and water.

Hormonal distress (puberty, pregnancy, menopause, great trauma in life) appears to greatly worsen it. The storage areas become what they call “an inflammation cascade” – a positive feedback loop where fat storage, edema creation, fibrous creation, just keep growing and in doing so they create the condition that makes them keep growing, and…

Eventually, once it reaches stage III or so, the very condition itself will spawn other conditions, such as lipo-lymphadema for example.

I have been scanning research and everything I could find online for any clues about this for many years.

One thing that seemed likely evident to me a decade or so ago is that this was what I call “twinkie fat” – it’s possible I picked up that term on the lowcarb forums eons ago – basically, that the fat was screwed up somehow, possibly due to trans-fat intake, in any case thanks to “modern” food and “junk” food.

Even 20 years ago it was clear the fat of lipedemics, in that area, was different… somehow.

Of course, having all these situations in the body does not prevent the person from – sooner or later – ALSO becoming “fat” in the “normal” way – and adding to the overall body problem, so there may be multiple things going on at once.

There is a reddit group called “what’s wrong with your cat” and I think lipedemics could have a group called “what’s wrong with your fat.”

This is just a preliminary to the next couple posts but I don’t know how familiar people here are with lipedema so I had to wax on a bit, sorry. More shortly.

Pj


(PJ) #2

Next topic:

"Adipaging" : ageing and obesity share biological hallmarks related to a dysfunctional adipose tissue

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1113/jp271691

Ah so. So now “something is wrong with your fat” with “obese” people too – not just lipedemics (who may or may not even be obese, but I suspect a huge % of the “super-morbidly-obese” are lipedemics).

Why should fat-people’s fat be filled with inflammation more than any other fat?

Alright moving on, next topic which is the thread title:

Someone may need to post something here or I might not be able to make another reply :slight_smile:


(Karim Wassef) #3

Thank you for digging into this.

:smile:


(PJ) #4

I did a first intro to the “ROS is the Signal” – “Fire in a Bottle” theory – and the resulting “crowd-sourced N=1 experiments of” “the Croissant Diet” – in the original thread, here: Fire in a Bottle - The ROS Theory of Obesity and The Proton Theory

It has been awhile since I found that topic in Jan 2020. The presence of starch-carbs in the diet made me hugely ambivalent and I finally decided that although keto and fasting were not losing more weight off me (though I wasn’t gaining) (I lose with fasting – it just rebounds, even eating well, so fast it makes me think I lost nothing but water) – still at least I know keto well and I worried eating starch would send my weight zooming back up. So it was just an intellectual curiosity.

I revisited the site around Nov 2020 and there were more people trying it, more useful posts about research dug up often from the past that all points to the same thing, and Brad had managed to work out availability of some bulk items he was then selling to the public – clearly this is not a site ‘for’ his commerce, it’s a site that brought about some commerce because stuff was just not easy to get to the public and the site was all about it. I ordered a bottle of his sterculia oil.

And literally forgot about the topic until just last week – when I got the oil, and spent a good five minutes trying to figure out what the hell it was and why it arrived since it had no packing slip. :slight_smile:

for those new to it:

Smart euro dude Dr. Petro Dobromylskyj aka Peter at Hyperlipid eventually worked out a growing observation of research evidence (and his own work) related to polyunsaturated fats in the diet. Alas since he is a monsterbrain with posts filled with acronyms only 3 people understood his complex posts way back then, so it was a while before this started to sink in and others began picking it up and running with it and getting it into layman attention. Mike Eades gave a talk on it I think a couple years ago. One who found it was Brad Marshall, a biologist who used to be a pork farmer and whole-animal butcher, and as an amusingly unrelated but then very related also-skill, had trained as a french chef.

He began posting about it, looking for more info, doing experiments on himself, etc. on his Fire in a Bottle blog, youtube interviews and more which spread the word farther.

Here is my thoughts on it:

  1. I was right all along and lipedema is messed up adipose cell membranes and tissue resulting from eating bad fats

  2. The dysfunctional fat (not “as” dysfunctional but still not quite normal) is seen in obese people because if their fat wasn’t dysfunctional, they wouldn’t be very fat for very long. Functional fat naturally sparks chemicals that burn it off. I think this will be the eventual realization.

  3. Brad’s Fire in a Bottle take on humans – that ROS is the Signal (saturated fat creates ROS and it’s used as a signalling molecule, and too much PUFA / insufficient SFA interferes with the signal, and the end-result in-body is a positive feedback loop that traps people with too much of this kind of fat in a seeming “can’t lose more and/or rapid regain if I do” cycle forever) – is a legit thing, and probably explains both #1 and #2, albeit there may be some variation which is really just “merely the details.”

There’s something wrong with your fat.

Cows and sheep, and poultry and pigs, and humans, all make and handle the intake of fat differently. The ruminants convert most of it to saturated fat. Humans cannot do that, although we can convert to mono (MUFA) as needed. Pigs and birds cannot convert at all – feed them PUFA their tissues are PUFA. Then we eat them. Now our bacon and chicken is PUFA too. Which we cannot convert.

So you’ve heard the truism about how someone can know just enough to be dangerous. It turns out all this time mainstream scientists have felt that because Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS) can do harm in the body when overdone (we have defenses), that whatever causes ROS, like cows and sheep, is baaaaaaad.

How bad? Arterycloggingsaturatedfat RED MEAT level of bad.

But like nearly everything else we eventually learn enough about, the body does ALL KINDS OF THINGS with ROS, including (but not limited to) that it is recognized as a “signalling molecule.”

Turns out this is massively important and multi-functional in the body. So far lots of things have been found this does and many more are sure to come. So maybe avoiding ROS to the degree of swearing off the food humans have eaten since the dawn of time, and then dousing yourself with exogenous antioxidants to be sure will kill as much of that bad oxidant stuff as possible… may not have been a good idea.

There are some things going on in this cycle (I’m skipping tons of detail… he explains it better, I won’t write a book) but it comes down to:

the body DE-saturating the fat we eat/make/release
the body not decoupling the fat the way it should (enough) to burn it thermically
the body then storing or re-storing instead of keeping in circulation that fat (circulation=satiation)

The goal is to experimentally – and this is crowd-source N=1 obviously because the mainstream is never going to fix a problem that is the fundamental root of the entire agri AND food AND medical reverse pyramid of money the situation creates – figure out how to improve the situation.

There is some indication of what can be done to gradually shift the ratio of SFA/PUFA in our bodies in a positive way. POSSIBLY, if we did this enough, we would reach a point where the body was no longer operating in that dysfunctional feedback loop. Maybe. Who knows?

One element of “the great fix experiment” as I think of it, is ramping DOWN the chemical SCD1, ramping UP the chemical PPAR-alpha… “AMPK” promotors… the loop is doing the opposite of these things.

So ketogenic focus really amped up our focus on getting insulin so it was no longer dysregulated.

This basically is a focus on getting leptin so it is no longer dysregulated.

Lucky for us, there’s lots of research that happens to either mention or focus on various stuff that increases or reduces the primary chemicals that are getting wrongly up/down regulated in this PUFA-fat effect. (As a layman’s aside, most the herbs that are classically known for reducing appetite are probably on this list. Some are known to be but they all seem to share common effects.) A recent study, given the memorable title The Milkshake Study, tried the “add stearic acid” idea – to impressively good effect. And that was just a brief thing and a low dose.

And then…

Not surprisingly, a huge % of Brad’s audience appears to be the keto - carnivore - paleo - IF crowd, most of whom knee jerked hard on the starch part.

In a way this is good, as it creates a self-selected ideal group for the experiments: people who have successfully lost weight and improved health – but who do not feel their current path is working well for them anymore, even though if dropping insulin were the ONLY thing that mattered, it should be.

We have a lot of excuses for this in the keto world but the reality is all those situations (“you have stress, etc.”) were usually just as present when we began keto too. So if eventually people either stall or lose so slowly it’s not worth it to them, or they lose some especially if fasting but regain it so fast it’s pointless, or they get to the “I have to eat no more than 15 carbs and 1200 calories or I gain” situation… these are the people ideal for the experiment.

I say ‘not surprisingly’ because nobody else is ok with let alone promoting red meat and saturated fat. Outside of those groups these things are basically the devil.

I thought that this was all pretty novel… and obscure. Then recently I stumbled on the writings (and poorly edited but usefully informative eBook) of a South African dude named Hans at men-elite.com.

Hans has an interesting perspective.

Despite that he has positive things to say about ketones, and what fasting can do, and mentions having done both, he is totally NOT about either of them. He is the first human I have run into (virtually) who is absolutely and totally on board with everything Brad says and I was astonished someone else was saying all this too.

Hans is in the boat with the folks who say that keto is a prompt solution to the “effects” of “an inability to properly regulate insulin” – it’s great, and it can save you from dropping dead of a heart attack – but that it does not ‘fix’ the underlying problem.

It does an “end-run” around it.

We call it “metabolic adaptation” that once fat, people seem to always get re-fat so fast, so easily, they’re dieting for life. Not everyone. But a large % of them.

If a person after keto weight loss cannot eat a reasonable number of carbs – please be aware the meaning of ‘reasonable’ in a keto forum is not normal hahaha – and NOT have a dysfunctional, overly-rapid fat-gain (not water) response, then their glucose handling was not fixed.

They fixed the symptom and then they “avoided” the problem by avoiding the thing that doesn’t work right. But that thing is part of how our body is ‘supposed’ to work. We avoid it because it’s broken and we don’t know how to fix it.

Hans thinks that keto further reduces metabolism and eventually that needs to be fixed. And he believes carbs are required for this.

Now I am unlikely to eat the carbs any bodybuilder thinks I should because they’re all lunatics – I say this with affection – but Hans is not the only guy saying this, ok.

There are quite a few decently credentialed other people who say this – particularly in the case of older women.

And I think the “especially for older women” thing matters here, not just because I am one of them, but because they are the most subject to metabolic slowdown via thyroid it seems, and this issue of depressed thyroid is what Hans is talking about being a symptom of what is broken.

NO I do not mean the problem IS the thyroid, I mean the thyroid is a SYMPTOM of the problem, and correcting the metabolism, would improve the thyroid.

By continuing to do what depresses metabolism while taking thyroid, we are essentially fixing the outcome or adjusting the symptom but not fixing the source.

So this has made me re-think Brad’s “starch and stearic” diet. Brad is eating carbs but he’s not all about them and he is even experimenting with IF and ADF and such as part of this. Brad’s pretty against any form of sugar; Hans is not if it’s in the form of fruit.

So… I maintain, if I am keto, and within ~1800 calories. I gain water, fat too quickly, if I eat reasonable calories but am not keto. I lose some water and (maybe? I assume?) fat while fasting, but regain any loss far too rapidly.

I’ve lost just over 200# on keto, one can’t say I haven’t done it long enough or well enough or am just trying to make it look bad lol.

I feel like I am a walking case study of exactly the ‘effects’ that Brad describes with the issues caused to leptin by the “toxic stored twinkie-fat cycle” as I think of it.

Some people who try Brad’s approach do well. Some don’t. Some regain some weight – obviously water at the least if they shift from keto – some say it took a few weeks and then all the sudden it shifted and they were hot, more energetic, and even if the scale didn’t move they were losing fat esp. in the gut.

If I try this, will it be a trainwreck? Who knows! Stay tuned. I have arranged some adds/supps, I am planning some meals – which is HARD – and I am intending to be my own guinea pig for this. I call it the “starch & stearic” or “S&S” diet.

PJ


(Bob M) #5

I gained well over 20 pounds using his starch + saturated fat diet, and I know a bunch who are the same. I had just gotten into size 34 pants (from 43), and ballooned up so quickly that I could barely fit into any of my 36s, only the biggest ones. Oddly, I gained all in my belly. My belly got huge.

After keeping the higher saturated fat, but without the starch, I’m getting back into my stretchy 34s and most of my 36s.

As for starch + fat, I could eat as many normal croissants + butter as I wanted to eat. I’m beginning to believe there’s a genetic component to it. In particular, at least Polish descent might not be good with this diet.

On the other hand, I am trying his oil and berberine. I can tell possibly some satiety benefit, though no temperature benefit as of yet.

There’s also a theory that those of us who gained weight on saturated fat will gain on the croissant diet. I gained weight going from Pritikin (very, very low fat, almost vegetarian), where I would get depressed, then drinking good beer, pizza, ice cream. Then back to Pritikin. That’s a low PUFA diet, I believe, but it’s very high saturated fat and sugar.

This theory may also be true.


(PJ) #6

I gained well over 20 pounds using his starch + saturated fat diet, and I know a bunch who are the same.

I saw some people saying that. And others saying they did but then it turned around. And one of the theories is that it may take awhile to shift the % of the stored bodyfat ‘enough’ that the more positive benefits kick in. I think it’s just one of those things… nobody really knows and it might differ for everyone.

Out of curiosity how long did you follow the starch&stearic approach, and were you tracking calories? Just wondering.

After keeping the higher saturated fat, but without the starch, I’m getting back into my stretchy 34s and most of my 36s.

Good!

On the other hand, I am trying his oil and berberine. I can tell possibly some satiety benefit, though no temperature benefit as of yet.

I have berberine but after seeing ref to it kinda killing gut bacteria, one of my big issues I’m working on healing is my gut so I avoid it. I got another supplement for the AMPK activator part that was the goal of the berberine, Jiaogulan (Gynostemma Pentaphyllum).

There’s also a theory that those of us who gained weight on saturated fat will gain on the croissant diet.

That’s confusing. What’s the theory behind that?

I would think the ONLY population segment that “gained weight on high saturated fat” might be what you describe of yourself. Since the vast majority of our food supply from '77-present, even if you’re living on fast food burgers, is so heavily pufa/mufa/trans.

PJ


(PJ) #7

Talking to an “on/off keto” friend trying to get to a description of this as succinct as possible I found this one:

Ketogenic eating helped me fix the dysfunction in insulin. This TCD is looking to help fix the dysfunction in leptin. I had half the answer before. Those two hormones are the yin/yang boss of metabolism and all that follows.

I sent it to Brad and he responded:

Haha! I like it! Yes. Here’s another one to throw in:

The job of leptin is to increase your metabolic rate, but it doesn’t work if your fat isn’t saturated enough.

I could have saved us all 15 pages of type and started with that. :smile:


(Bacon by any other name would taste just as great.) #8

The main problem with leptin on a high-carbohydrate diet is that the resulting elevated insulin level blocks the leptin receptors in the ventromedial hypothalamus that detect leptin when insulin is low.

I suspect that this is left over from the mechanism that promotes hibernation, because when you are preparing for a winter of not eating, you want fat to accumulate in adipose tissue, and you want to continue to be hungry so that you can continue to put on the fat. Once the supply of berries, etc., runs out, your carb intake drops, and so does your insulin. At that point, your leptin will resume signaling to the brain that you have eaten enough. But by that time it’s winter, and so you retire to your den to sleep it off. Of course, our modern problem is that carbohydrates and sugars are available to us all the time, so there is never a cutoff.


(PJ) #9

The other supplements are supposed to address that…

edited to add: this was in my notes I found somewhere:

Leptin has three main functions.
1) satiety in the hypothalamus,
2) suppress insulin,
3) suppress SCD1.
This is separate from insulin signaling and perhaps the most important effect of leptin!

In the long term it’s all ROS. High SCD1=low ROS = obesity.

They’re additive. Leptin PLUS ROS in the hypothalamus equals satiety.

…but I guess - without sufficient SFA there is insufficient ROS. And SFA increases SCD1. So the supps are to reduce SCD1 and upregulate PPAR-alpha (AMPK). I think. Honestly I am still trying to wrap my head around most of this.


(Anthony) #10

I enjoyed your other thread and this one also very much. They’re well laid out and hit all the high points. I’m still playing with my own variant of TCD.

I’ve gained a little less than 15 pounds, coming from keto I’m sure some was water. It’s been about 2.5 months now and I’m maintaining that pretty effortlessly. I have found that flour/wheat products cause bloating for me, as well as sugar, so I’ve been getting almost all of my carbs from rice and potatoes. I haven’t gotten around to corn yet.


(PJ) #11

If I eat even trace amounts of wheat I am craving constantly and want to nosh like a rabid hyena. Aside from which wheat and rice destroy my gut (leaky gut so impacts me body-wide) and I wake up thinking I’m gonna die and wheat gives me asthma for a week.

But potato starch, tapioca starch, arrowroot starch (the latter two more often used I think), even corn starch, don’t hurt me far as I know and are just as much starch. (A little coconut flour is often added to stuff with them for weight maybe.)

I am having a hard time finding much of anything made with just starch though (crepes, tortillas, brazilian cheese … things) I guess because anybody who could eat starch, would either just eat wheat flour, or would eat a low-carb flour.

I figure if I can make a functional tortilla, I could have no end of tacos – breakfast stuff, beef carnitas, regular ground meat, and if I could fry them crispy I could have chips, or taquitos… so what’s not to love. Esp since in a perfect world I could make that stuff in bulk and freeze it and then just reheat for instant food and know exactly the counts.

I have been eating carbs again in prep for this and trying to plan out a menu and then prior to doing it, match the carb intake, because I don’t want any weight gain from water to be confused with ‘real’ weight gain.

I need to come up with some fat blend %s – I have the 90% stearic stuff from fireinabottle.net, cocoa butter, coconut oil, beef tallow, grassfed butter, and if needed for softness in some application a tiny bit of stercula oil (a liquid). Coconut oil has to be the main due to stearic’s waxiness. My thought is I make up one heavy on cocoa butter for sweet or middling things. Anyway and once a given combination is melted, high speed blend it together with the immersion blender while hot, and then pour into silicone molds. Then I would know exactly how many grams each one was, and could just toss it in the freezer or fridge and use as needed.

The lack of other people posting clear details and foods has been rather offputting I admit so I’m glad to see you mention doing it!


(Anthony) #12

Luckily for me wheat just bloats me but doesn’t otherwise doesn’t seem to have negative effects. It does however mess with my satiety signaling, as in I don’t feel it from bread/pasta, so I still eat it occasionally right now

I’ve never handled potato or tapioca starch before, are they similar to corn starch? I wonder if they could be used almost like a light breading for frying. I know in chinese cooking it sorta is, look up velveting. I bet if you play with it a little a mixture of corn flour and starch could be a versatile cooking option. I’m thinking corn bread or maybe even a gnocchi type creation, polenta obviously. I’ve never heard of them being used but cornbread-crumbs might be useful too–oreganata? Enough starch could probably turn any gravy into a savory pudding. There’s a lot of possibilities here depending on how much you enjoy cooking.

Oats/oatmeal are another one I’ve been using.

The only supplement I had bought was the stearic acid powder, I made one batch of the butter with it and got through it but probably won’t make another. I never found a good way to incorporate it into anything without just getting a mouthful of wax and it crystalizing on my plate. If I start trying to ramp up the static acid in my diet again (I’m currently not) I would just eat cacao butter straight, I find it less offensive.

All my fat comes from meat (90% beef but occasional pork), tallow, or dairy/butter. I haven’t been tracking recently. 3 meals, no snacking. Macros are roughly 30/35/35, but the carbs/fat ratio varies day to day. I know I’m not really doing TCD but I’m in the spirit of it so TCD-lite.


#13

For anybody with these issues, if you have a biohacker bone in your body, look into fat destroying Peptides like Tesamorelin or AOD9604. Tesamorelin was made for HIV induced Lipodistrophy, and AOD was made to be an Anti Obesity drug to combat metabolic syndrome, both target messed up fat cells that don’t want to go away. I’ve used both and they both work. My wife was just prescribed AOD and it’s been a couple weeks and she’s definitely loosing fat around the mid section with no other changes made.


(Central Florida Bob ) #14

Interesting, @lfod14 These guys say AOD9604 should be injected into your abdominal fat pad daily? The first place I looked at Tesamorelin shows it as an injectable I’ve done a lot of biohacking experiments, but none that required injections. Finger sticking to draw blood for sugar testing to test reactions to things (diet soda, artificial sweeteners and more), sure. Too many times to remember. Somehow injecting something like this seems different.

Well, I came to thank @RightNOW PJ for the work you’ve done in putting this together. I’ll be following this!


#15

Correct-o, you literally feel it less than a blood sugar finger stick though as you only use an insulin syringe for it.


(PJ) #16

So @lfod14 you can’t get it without a prescription, right?


#17

Ya, you can. The difference is when you get it without it’ll say something to the effect of “Not for Human Consumption” or “Research use only”, it’s the exact same stuff, just meant to scare you away. The overwhelming majority of people using peptides aren’t getting them prescribed, just a money grab IMO, Plus, given that all supplements aren’t FDA controlled or tested anyways, that “warning” is meaningless to me. My wife paid over $200 for her AOD prescribed, it costs me $45 for the same exact vial.


(Karim Wassef) #18

How do you know you’re getting it from a reputable source?


(PJ) #19

I tried a starch-based paleo tortilla recipe yesterday. Total disaster. It wanted 1/2 cup (8 Tbsp) tapioca starch. The starch package label says 1 Tbsp is 15g. 8 fully packed exactly leveled Tbsps came to 78g. What then??

So I did it by weight. It was nearly hard and dry immediately and the four rolled balls to do on my tortilla-press were like firm cookies and then the bare pressing I could do on one (far too thick and small), it stuck to the parchment and tore into pieces trying to lift other parchment side off.

So far I still don’t have a single recipe I can eat that is ideal, although “something with a bunch of fried potatoes” isn’t far away.

I’m not gonna be able to try this if I can’t come up with some foods. I admit starch is not my forte, to understate it. Ideas welcome.


(PJ) #20

Here’s a thought:

When you brown ground meat (or even cook a burger patty in sous vide or pressure cook or grilling) – I know it loses water too, but –

Is the fat that comes off it more likely to be the PUFA/MUFA because they are more liquid form than the SFA?

I know it’s all liquid when melted, but it seems like the PUFA would be thinner and more likely to run out of a ‘form’ like a burger. Wishful thinking??