Fire in a Bottle II, lipedema, adipaging, twinkie-fat

hyperlipid
fire-in-a-bottle
ros-is-the-signal
lipedema
the-croissant-diet

(Anthony) #21

I dunno, potatoes fried in tallow with your beef isn’t a terrible way to live. Or mashed. Though I’ve kinda gotten used to eating “potluck” type meals of things that don’t really go together but it’s just what I eat.

I suspect that the pufa/mufa that’s naturally occurring in beef isn’t a big deal and is in proportions that your body can handle. It’s the unnatural balance we’ve been exposed to that causes the problems. That’s not to say we don’t need to overcorrect to get back where we should be.

Being that pufas are liquid at room temperature (due to a lower melting point?) I wonder if you could render them out with a souse vide? But you might be sitting in the bacterial danger zone to do it.

Regarding the tortillas and the measurement discrepancy, maybe you need to make them like pasta. You can’t really measure the ratio of dry to wet ingredients and have to go by feel/consistency of the dough. I’ve never tried to make tortillas though so I can’t say if that’s good advice or not.


#22

The AAS and Peptide world are very good at self/crowd policing sources. Many forums randomly pull from vendors and send them to the lab for testing and post the results publicly. I’ve sent some in myself as well. Vendors know that if their stuff comes back bad that’s pretty much the end of them as they know it and word gets around very quickly. No different really than any other “Supplement” you grab off a shelf that the FDA won’t endorse. Always a slight chance it’ll be underdosed or totally fake, but I’ve yet to see that happen.


(Bacon by any other name would taste just as great.) #23

Even saturated fats liquefy at cooking temperatures. Polyunsaturates are liquid at room temperature, while saturated and monounsaturated fats are solid. If you call butter art room temperature solid, that is. It has to do with how the molecules line up, or don’t. Basically, oils are liquid at room temperature because of the high percentage of polyunsaturated fats they contain, while the cooking fats we aren’t supposed to eat are roughly equal in saturated and monounsaturated fats, with a small percentage of polyunsaturates.


(Bacon by any other name would taste just as great.) #24

They are also fats that we have evolved to handle. The concern is not only the excess of PUFA’s from plant sources, but that those PUFA’s were not in the human diet before roughly 1860, when cottonseed oil started to be used in the food supply, originally to adulterate butter. Another concern is the compounds these new PUFA’s form when heated to cooking temperatures. Not to mention what all these new chemicals do to the human body when incorporated into cell walls, etc.


(PJ) #25

I believe this is the source of Lipedema.
I thought that after all the reading I could do ~8 years ago, but now that there is more info I’ve seen public about PUFA, it seems even more certain.

It’s a ‘no cure known’ so if Brad’s theory works… gradually… to shift the %/ratio of PUFA stored in fat… which would secondarily I assume eventually affect membranes though it might be awhile following… it would be the only thing known to touch it.


(Bacon by any other name would taste just as great.) #26

Dr. Lustig talks about some of this in this video of his that I just came across:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpNU72dny2s


(PJ) #27

That was a very good video but that particular one didn’t actually talk about the fats being absorbed into cell membranes.

It did however scare me straight about sugar LOL

Interesting his notes about how when they fed people starch instead of sugar everything improved so much so fast. Well maybe that’s what you meant, I just realized – the thread in general – starch.

three quotes that grabbed my attention from him:

branch chain amino acids from corn-fed beef also causes that [fatty liver from alcohol/sugar]
– Dr. Robert Lustig

…they had non-alcoholic pancreas disease too…
– Dr. Robert Lustig

If you don’t feed your microbiome, your microbiome will feed on you.
– Dr. Robert Lustig


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #28

Lustig continually says ‘sugar’ when he means ‘fructose’. I found it a bit confusing to keep that in mind as he kept saying one or the other. To me ‘sugar’ means ‘carb’. Anyway in another topic I mentioned that fructose serves no useful purpose and this video confirms that statement in spades. Thanks.

PS: He also condemns all ‘processed food’ as bad because of added ‘sugar’. I think that’s painting with too broad a brush. I eat processed food that contains no added ‘sugar’/fructose/HFCS, including many cheeses, canned meats and fish, sliced roast beef. Also, I don’t understand his argument about so-called ‘corn-fed’ beef. If according to his presentation the damage is in the liver, then it seems more like an argument to avoid eating beef liver. All cattle spend most of their lives eating grass and hay. It’s only the final ‘finish’ when they’re fed grain to add the fat we keto folks love so much.


(Bacon by any other name would taste just as great.) #29

Oh, yes. This talk by Dr. Chris Knobbe discusses that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kGnfXXIKZM

I believe that whenever he says “sugar” he is talking about the chemical called “table sugar” or “sucrose,” which is a glucose molecule linked to a fructose molecule. He is definitely not talking about serum glucose. If that’s what he’s talking about, that’s what he calls it.

Most processed foods found in the center aisles of the supermarket have been produced with much of the fat removed, hence sugar (sucrose) and salt have been added to improve the flavour. He is not talking about the minimally-processed foods you mention, and I don’t know anyone who would call slicing roast beef “processing” it. Perhaps he should say “manufactured” instead of “processed.” I’m more or less with him on this one, because I don’t consider cheese or sausage to be “processed” foods. And things may be better in Canada, but in the U.S. you would need to check the list of ingredients carefully to make sure that no sugar of any type has been sneaked into your sausage.

As for his point about “corn-fed” beef, I believe it is simply that grass-finished beef has a better ω-3/ω-6 ratio. If you prefer corn-finished beef, there is nothing to stop you from eating it. I personally don’t enjoy the taste of the “grass-fed” beef I’ve purchased, and it’s too expensive to buy regularly, so I don’t worry about it.


(PJ) #30

That was a nice video, it was all about fats – although it wasn’t about incorporation into the cell membrane, merely that we store them and some are toxic.

I grabbed some screenshots during that I found worthy I will post here.

The most interesting by far and that almost nobody wants to think about it seems – but I see someone mention this now and then, like the Hans guy from South Africa I mentioned previously – is that weirdly, fructose actually seems to be a bit protective in some instances. We look at it like absolutely the devil but maybe this is like looking at SFA that way, when someone is in a pathologic state, things that may not be harmful (in dose-dependent fashion of course) normally can be.


(PJ) #31

I watched a super brief video last night and got hooked and ended up spending too much of my night and then morning watching more video by this guy. He is a blood test freak and he’s been tracking his food in detail and testing constantly for many years, and so has been able to get a N=1 look into what changes in his body. Some of this doesn’t have much research yet I think, and being just one person it’s only suggestive of course, but I find it very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT1UMLpZ_CrQ_8I431K0b-g

When he added yogurt to his daily diet there was some very interesting improvements. A number of things I’ve seen recently suggest that kefir, yogurt, and fermented produce, are just really good effects in the body.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #32

Fructose is a lot like ethanol. Neither is useful nor needed. They’re both processed in the same liver pathways, result in a lot of the same metabolites, and in small doses seem/might have some beneficial effects (Note: the jury is still out on this!). In more than small doses both do the same damage to the liver and eventually destroy it. Game over. Everyone’s mileage varies as to what constitutes ‘small doses’ and exactly where the damage begins. Both have done a lot of damage to a lot of people. In a lot of ways both are also similar to an addictive drug that requires bigger and bigger doses to get the desired high. They’re so similar I think a good argument could be made that they represent a 4th macro. They’re both consumed as if they are a macro. Just my humble opinion. :roll_eyes:


(PJ) #33

Yeah I think since sugar basically becomes alcohol in the body the way it’s digested, sugar/alcohol should be the 4th macro… and you’re right the quantities ingested are high enough to make that make sense.

I do notice though that the body has a pretty brilliant way of dealing with nearly everything. Even slightly toxic things it often uses to its advantage in some ways.

It’s just the quantity that seems to be out of control. And the main reason for that is because
a/ PUFA is our main fat and it does not serve us for energy really, and
b/ we’re not eating enough good stuff, so we stuff the bad stuff into the appetite needs.

Eat sufficient meat and dairy and one doesn’t have room for a lot else. Whatever else someone ate in that case is not likely to be in quantities large enough to do that much harm, and it’s possible that harm is mitigated by other factors (including diverse micronutrients).

I was thinking this morning about a number of island peoples who lived on coconuts and boar and pineapple and they did not become gigantic as a norm until the more recent days. As some of those slides I posted showed, there are dietary patterns in people who ate a ton of starch or a ton of fructose and were healthy, but the one thing consistent in every healthy group is a super low intake of PUFA (and much of it being Omega 3 when it was even slightly higher).


(PJ) #34

I’m trying to work out stuff to eat for this, including carbs which I want to equal whatever I’ll do on S&S as I call it, so any water gain showing up on scale is not a confounding factor.

So far I’m just eating, trying to ignore carbs and eat a variety of things now’s my chance, whole foods I mean like produce, and then after the fact I will work out the macros.

Do you know how hard it is to stay even below 4% PUFA? And most the healthy peoples studied were lower than that, some a lot lower.

I almost have to pile on calories on purpose in fats like dairy, just so that the PUFA % will be lower in the overall meal. It’s ridiculous.

Here is a simple 8oz bit of burger patty or roast.


(edited the above for copy error 5/5/2021 6:21pm CDT)

A baked potato with butter and sour cream

combining them


(edited the above for copy error 5/5/2021 6:21pm CDT)

A dairy-fat scramble, enough to stay full for the day, nearing 5%

Yeah that’s all I have so far. I mean I have some other things but they are just my typical lowcarb foods, or they are higher carb stuff. Like this morning I had fresh kefir, a blend of strawberry raspberry blueberries frozen, a banana, a raw backyard-chicken egg, a teaspoon of spice blend (cinnamon nutmeg ginger allspice cloves), one dropper liquid stevia, blended. Super delicious. I’ve so rarely eaten carbs outside holidays for years it seems super novel. (I also had a protein drink.)

It’s not about the upcoming eating plan though… it’s not really rigid, it’s just up SFA as much as poss, lower PUFA as much as poss, take some supps/efforts to send SCD1 down and PPAR-alpha/AMPK up. That’s more a concept recipe, the detail of the formula is up to the individual. Fructose is the devil, do I dare eat berries let alone a banana with my kefir, I’m big on healing my gut, increasing my metabolism, and expanding my micronutrients, and it fits into that part. As far as S&S goes, it’s basically “fermented whole milk to which I added fructose.” :smiley:


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #35

I thought I was obsessive about tracking nutrients! :flushed:

My thoughts on PUFAs: if it’s coming from food, especially animal foods rather than plants it’s likely just fine and in proportion to what we need to be eating. Chickens and/or pigs are dicey since they may have been fed a diet high in seed oils. Our Pleistocene ancestors ate PUFAs since there’s small amounts in just about everything they ate. They did just fine.

I think the problems with PUFAs derive from concentrating them in seed oils, which only began in the late 19th century with the invention of linseed/cottonseed oil to make a buck off the residue from cotton processing. Then in the mid-20th century folks discovered they could extract an ersatz ‘oil’ from a number of seeds by subjecting them to enough pressure, heat and solvents. This stuff is really just machine oil and lubricants - not food.

Voila! Heart Healthy! Vegetable Oils! to replace all those artery clogging saturated fats.


(PJ) #36

That’s my “anything worth doing is worth overdoing” mentality. Either that or I’m still compensating for the Graph Envy™ Karim inspires in me.

No but really, I have spreadsheets with years of nutrition info collection, and it turns out every damn thing I consider I have to go find all over again to find the fats! Because I only collected the macros before, not the fat types. Gaahhhhh

PS oh and did I mention there is NO info on a crapload of things for the fat type details… and the USDA’s “improvement” of their system, well, I liked it a lot better before they fixed what wasn’t broken IMO


(PJ) #37

Agreed. It’s just that the point of the starch&stearic approach is kind of to heavily overcompensate for a lifetime of this and a body filled with PUFA fats (which reminds me I’m sending in the blood test for the omegaquant.com so I have a baseline starting point to compare to in a few months to see if there is any change).

There’s only so much I can do though. Take up living on cocoa butter perhaps. I actually react ever so slightly to that but have never had it alone only with other things in it as sweet fat bombs so I’m not sure if it’s that I’m reacting to, guess I’ll find out soon. I have no desire to taste savory foods fried in cocoa butter blend oil but I guess we will see what it’s like.


(Michael - When reality fails to meet expectations, the problem is not reality.) #38

Many years ago a nun told me that anything worth doing was worth doing fanatically. :innocent:


(PJ) #39

My morning smoothie. So far I’m mostly just eating stuff, counting the weight, then later, figuring out the detail, and if needed, fussing with the plan to make it better suited. This one as-is came out better than I expected. Separately I also had a Premiere Protein drink.

I guess I could in theory add a little something like sour cream to it, upping the calories and fats and reducing the pufa% slightly.


(PJ) #40

Revised 2 of the first grids for a copy error, oops.
Finally finished the ‘paperwork’ on the chili I made last week.
I make this every other week and make 7-12 servings.
Put in freezer and fridge and nuke it when I want it.
Chili con carne is basically my primary lowcarb food group.

If anyone should want to use the recipe be warned it’s pretty spicy.

This is a ridiculous meal but I ate it recently. Meant to have meat too but got busy and forgot then it was too late and I wasn’t hungry and I’d had a lot of protein that day already. Delicious but carby. Waiting for the insulin monster to kick my ass with one of these meals eventually. We’ll see.


I can’t reply again so adding to last post. :slight_smile: I’ve been taking notes from skim-reading for the last couple weeks and I’m going to be pasting a few in. Most are actually various comments or answers from Brad of FIOB I’ve seen in various places, though not all.

(Vit D and O3 lower SCD1 which we’re trying to lower as it converts stuff to pufa)

Berberine lowers SCD1. As does metformin. As does sterculia oil.

In the Banana Milkshake study, subjects were given Stearic Acid, and that alone was enough to cause mitochondrial fusing and uncoupling - which would gobble-up unsaturated fats in the process.

If Stearic Acid can promote uncoupling at a faster rate than SCD1 can de-saturate our dietary and circulating fat, then it might be the more powerful tool.

Linoleic acid is in EVERYTHINGGGG ughh

Not a problem if you like beef. Beef bacon is just as good as regular bacon, if not better. A few eggs a day shouldn’t be a big deal, especially if every other part of your diet is on point. Burgers, steaks, beef ribs, beef tacos, home made pizzas… everything cooked in butter, tallow, cocoa butter, pure stearic acid…whatever.

we’re unclear about palmitic acid. It seems similar to stearic, but we don’t know if it has the same metabolic effects.

No need to do the starch part. My diet is essentially beef/eggs/cheese, I just toss supplementary stearic in and consciously avoid PUFAs when I stray from my regular foods.
Benefits have been greater carb tolerance (when I do stray from diet) and a bit of mild body recomposition. (A bit less body fat, but more of a reduction in size/location/consistency.) No weight loss to speak of, but also none of the seasonal weight gain I usually experience. And I didnt experience long term appetite reduction until I started doing SCD1 reduction. (i.e. Actively stopping my own biochemistry from desaturating the SFA I consume.)

I chose naringin as one of my scd1 inhibitors, partly because I read that berberine can destroy gut bacteria when taken regularly. I’m hoping naringin has enough of the active/effective ingredient of grapefruit to make a difference (without the citric acid).

“The body requires iodine to metabolize both omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids”

I have also made an egg sauce using egg yolks, butter, and shredded cheddar cheese. This is freaking delicious - and it’s pretty simple to make.

Sauteed mushrooms in butter is also very good. I’m not sure how much butter gets soaked up - but if you want something else to go with your meat, this is great.

You can saute mushrooms with zucchini in butter or tallow and they will rock your tastebuds.

I use mashed veg, e.g. cauliflower, celeriac, broccoli, or stir-fried shredded things, such as pointy-cabbage, bok choi etc.

Im finding the easiest way to down a lot of stearic acid quickly is to mix it with protein powder dry. Throw some cold milk in and use a nutribullet or small blender and let it go for at least 30 seconds to blend nicely. Chug it down and done! No cooking, greasy clean up etc. EASY! I notice energy, heat generation and satiety within 45 minutes of downing it. Could go the whole day on 1 shake. I use a scoop of protein powder and two tablespoons of stearic powder

Try adding cocoa and butter too. I drink this every morning and it’s pretty good to me. 2 c. coffee, 1 tablespoon cocoa powder, 20 cacao butter chips, 2 tablespoons of butter

Sterculic acid inhibits the SCD1 enzyme. SCD1 desaturates saturated fats. Inhibiting it results in less desaturation activity. So sterculic acid reduces desaturation.

sterculia oil: I’m not sure what the dosing is. Brad says 1/4 to 1/2 a teaspoon, but then he also says 2 bulb squeezes. 2 bulb squeezes seems like it would be a huge dose.

(brad said) I never get a full dropper full when I squeeze. It’s more like half. So two half droppers seems about right.

To some degree. It’s clear that different foods have different hormonal triggers. I’ve been drinking cocoa butter coffee (24 grams cocoa butter), and that does nothing for satiety for me. But if I add in some carbs or protein, I get both an immediate and prolonged satiety.

Just protein, and just carbs, don’t do it for me either. So for me, mixing at least 2 macronutrients seems important.

When I get the “mix” right, it will be 8 hours of Thanksgiving stuffed-ness, but from only a normal meal’s worth of food.

Having read Dave’s testimonial on the FIAB blog something I noticed about his food choices was that he has also been quite aggressively feeding his gut biome some foods those critters just love and thrive on. E.g. spinach, cranberry, oranges, tea, onions, ashwaganda, garlic, swiss cheese, bone broth. Increasing Akkermansia M. (hereon tbka AM) in particular has been shown to aid weight loss.

FIOB stearic: According to hystrene, the final composition is 92%stearic/8% palmitic acid.

Brad mentions a couple times in his blog that maximizing the ratio of saturated fat to polyunsaturated fat is more important than just eating as much saturated fat as possible. So for myself I am focusing more on cutting out polyunsaturated fat rather than trying to eat more saturated fat.

In the Banana Milkshake study that Brad talked about, that was 24 grams of supplemental Stearic Acid.

In a recent podcast, Brad said that when he was doing the diet with serious intent he was getting around 50-100 grams of Stearic Acid a day (might have been his feasting days, where he was eating up to 6,000 calories in a meal).

According to my calculations, 24 grams of stearic acid has roughly the same number of fat calories as 1/4th of a stick of butter.

24 gr stearic acid is about 100 grams suet

" The test shows the desaturase of your red blood cells, so it wont be reflective of your stored fat but its an easy and relatively affordable test to do, results are fast and I think comparing yourself to myself, Nathan and the Chinese will give you a reasonable guess as to your desaturase activity. It shows a lot more info than just these two numbers. You can calculate your desaturase index by dividing your Oleic(18:1n9) by your Stearic(18:0)."

I used to use it all the time. You definitely need it to balance with methionine in other proteins. I just use collagen every once in awhile now. Glycine seems to kick people out of ketosis if that’s a goal.

I make a 1-to-1 ratio of stearic acid to heavy whipping cream, adding in 1 T cocoa powder, pinch of salt and monk fruit sweetener to taste. Stirring it all together makes it mousse like and pleasant to eat, no waxy sensation.

Taurine has shown in animal studies to decrease SCD1 level and decrease fatty liver disease.[ref] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32062620/

Animal studies also show that EGCG, found in green tea, decreases SCD1.