Finally In Ketosis for Sure

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fasting
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(Jacob Wagner) #1

Here I am 3 months later, back in the Newbie area.

As mentioned in other posts I have been testing my blood for a few weeks now. I have had some interesting results, one of which was the lack of evidence of ketosis. I haven’t, in that time, exceeded 0.4 on my meter.

A week ago I did a short fast for about 2 days and for the first time saw my glucose drop below 100. It was stopped by the beginning of Holiday festivities, but I came back on a few days later. to see what a longer fast would do.

I have done a couple of EF during the last 3 months, but this is the first time since I got a tester. Last night, 45 hours in, For the first time ever I tested a 0.6. Glucose was still 102.

It seems as though I need to fast for ~40 hours before I get into ketosis. Where I thought I was well on my way to adaption, now it seems I have barely gotten started. How can I spend time in ketosis to cause my body to start adapting?

Even a 23/1 IF isn’t 40 hours. If I ate every 2 days, I would still only be in ketosis for a few hours each cycle. Right now I am planning this fast to go 3-4 days, but even a weekly 4 day fast would still put me in ketosus for only 1/3 of the time.

Okay, something about my analysis here must be wrong. I am not an expert on metabolism, but in the last few months I have learned more than most people. I know that my previous paragraph doesn’t make sense. I know that eating 20g per day of net carbs should put me into ketosis. I clearly have significant insulin resistance, but not as much as some of you who have had better results than I. Why don’t I see that in my blood?

Based on what I know from these forums and listening to the @dudes podcast I can only conclude that my diet has some hidden carbs in it somewhere. When I complete this fast (tonight or tomorrow) I plan to be hyper vigilant about logging and testing the result for a while to try to find what I am missing.

I really don’t know what else I can do.

–Jacob

(Jacob Wagner) #2

Update:
Now at 51 hours I waited 90 minutes after waking before testing. My glucose is still 102 but ketones are up to 0.7.

It seems like my body is defending this glucose level by producing more and it’s creating ketones in the process.

–Jacob

(Mike W.) #3

You can eat and remain in Ketosis. You just have to watch the carbs and protein somyou don’t get kicked out.

(Cywgdave) #4

Possibility for you, just yesterday I listened to a podcast with Dominic D’Agostino, in it he mentioned that people have different rates of ketone production and in ketone clearance. He says that there are some people he’s tested who have a lot of difficulty getting their ketone levels up because their bodies are very efficient at utilizing them. Whereas others don’t utilize them so efficiently and therefore have an easier time getting the higher levels. You may be one of the ones who is very efficient at clearing them and then won’t see high levels on a meter but your body is still producing and using them.__

Again another possibility is that it is taking time for your body to get used to producing them, I found a few years ago that it was difficult to get into ketosis, I would have to fast and then consume coconut oil or butter (BPC usually) to manage it, now I find that if I miss one of my meals I’m into ketosis within a couple of hours of missing it.

D’Agostino link at http://highintensityhealth.com/dom-dagostino-phd-your-brain-on-keto/ warning, it is a long keto geek-fest. He has a pretty cool job.

(Jacob Wagner) #5

I suspect your second idea is more likely. If I were efficient at using them then I don’t think I would be so hungry :smile:

I will definitely listen to that recording.

–Jacob

(Richard Hanson) #6

Hi Dave,

Thanks for posting the link to Dr. Dom D’Agostino’s video, it was quite interesting.

I think it important to remember what testing is measuring, in this case it is ketones in the blood, not the volume of ketone production or the volume of ketone utilization. The same is true for serum glucose levels or triglycerides. What is in the blood is the delta between the rate of production and the rate of utilization whitch is impacted by the delay, how long it takes after a substance is produced to when it is consumed.

I liked the bit where D’Agostino talks about testing for ketone sensitivity by observing a exogenous dose response just we test for insulin sensitivity.

Keto for Life!

Best Regards,
Richard

(Naomi Brewster) #7

I’m no expert so only hypothesising - If you BG is so elevated then that is where my focus would be - what you’re doing with EF and IF is probably the best strategy for reducing your BG levels. Also if you are starting out with fatty liver then firstly the liver will be off loading some of that sugar into the blood stream (scientists cringe at such a simplification) which may be elevating BG but also meaning that your liver can’t produce the BHB efficiently. Give it time - it sounds like you’re healing - it may take a few months. Ketosis is only half the story. Make sure you are eliminating the toxins by going number twos at least every day. Drink lots of water. Maybe take a liver support supplement or make sure to eat lots of green leafy veggies and take digestive bitters - that sort of thing to help the liver clean out.

(Richard Hanson) #8

Hi Jacob,

We also don’t know how much protein you are consuming or your total energy input.

Eating low/moderate protein, 0.8 g/day per kg lean body mass, and reduced caloric intake will also help induce a state of ketosis.

Best Regards,
Richard

(Kitty) #9

Really? I’m 42kg lbm which means I should only eat 34g of protein a day? Or are you saying that just to get ketones higher?[quote=“FatMan, post:8, topic:24449”]
, 0.8 g/day per kg lean body mass,
[/quote]

(Richard Hanson) #10

Hi Ash,

That was the number my doctor prescribed, 0.8 g/day per kg of LBM. If you are an athlete or body building or a growing child or pregnant … if your body needs more protein to increase LBM, then you might need more.

There are a very wide range of recommendations about what is an appropriate level of protein intake. As an example, Drs. Phinney and Volek suggest between 1.0 g/day and 1.5 g/day. I am eating between 40 g/day to 50 g/day, but for someone who is having issues entering ketosis, one problem might be the insulin response to eating protein and the level of protein intake.

Keto for Life!

Warmest Regards,
Richard

#11

A high fasting blood glucose is a key indicator of insulin resistance. Another indicator is time- how long BG takes to fall after a meal. Your numbers indicate significant metabolic derangement. During an extended fast, ideally, glucose levels are under 65. At this level, basal insulin is very low.

While I am not diabetic, I have a significant amount of IR. Once my BG is elevated, it can take a couple of days to return to optimal range. The most efficient tool for repairing metabolism is fasting. The reason I adopted my fasting protocol (continuous fast occasionally interrupted by a singe meal) is because once I am out of ketosis it takes 3-4 days for my BG to drop back down and ketones rise.

Some people are able to maintain their desired level of ketosis while eating 3+ meals a day. Others can only achieve it with IF. And a few need some degree of EF (or prefer it for other reasons).

While ketones are a useful index, as @gnomesb said, focus on BG. It is a much more reliable indicator of your metabolic state.

(Todd Allen) #12

Jacob, as @4dml said you likely have insulin resistance. And that results in both blood sugar and insulin staying higher which reduces fat burning. Although 0.5 mmol/l blood ketones is typically described as the threshhold for “nutritional ketosis” think of it more as a goal then a must achieve level. At 0.4 you are 80% of the way there, that’s not an “F” more like getting a “B” grade.

It will get better. Extended fasts can speed the process but if you push it hard before your body is ready it will be more challenging with more adversity such as low energy and stronger hunger.

(Jacob Wagner) #13

Interesting. What is a typical BHB level for someone on a food-pyramid diet?

–Jacob

(Louise ) #14

Some insulin resistant types may never get to 0.5 for their ketone levels. Apparently, Prof Noakes doesn’t register high levels of ketones. It might be that Phinney & Volek just chose an arbitrary number of 0.5 as the minimum threshold?

(Naomi Brewster) #15

Dr Noakes also runs something like 2 hours a day so he’s using whatever ketones he is generating.

I recently saw a youtube video of Phinney talking about how they came up with the range - starting at 22:09

(Louise ) #16

Thanks for the link to the video. I was lucky enough to see Dr Phinney last year in Melbourne (Australia). The key thing is the sliding scale of where ketosis ‘starts’, which is arbitrary. As he said in the video, anything above 0.3 is normal. The caveat of course, is how insulin resistant you are, as well as like Prof Noakes, what you’re generating and using.

(Naomi Brewster) #17

I’m in Melbourne too! Sunshine. Gearing up for the promised storm - hopefully it breaks the heat spell!

Re: ketone levels - I had an interesting thing happen a couple of weeks ago - I am normally in a 1.5-3 range but I had a tooth infection and when I checked my ketones they were above 5 - which they have never been before and after the infection died down I was back to normal. I still haven’t worked out what happened there - was my body not using ketones or had it ramped up production to combate the infection? apopros of nothing

(Todd Allen) #18

Typical would be to have trace to none during the day and a very modest rise overnight as the body burns off some fat.

(Jacob Wagner) #19

He said in the video that anything below 0.3 is normal.

That suggests that the 0.4 that I can hit without fasting is doing me some good after all.

He did say that higher is better up to 1.0.

I have come to the conclusion, from this discussion and my own experiences that my difficulty getting glucose down and BHB up is significant insulin resistance.

I will be looking to adopt some type of more regular fasting regimen.

Anecdotally I went most of yesterday not getting hungry. I had a few blackberries in my tea but otherwise didn’t eat until 7pm.

I don’t know my numbers during that because I am out of test strips (I have some arriving today).

–Jacob

(Mark Rhodes) #20

I am fasting again the second of two of day fasts in three weeks. My first fast my at this time:BG lowed out at 41 and BHB 7.3. Currently at the same point in the fast (86 hrs) I am 66 BG and 3.7 BHB.

My thoughts are that as I continue to work on my insulin sensitivity repair and my ability to use ketones could be the reason for lower readings on the BHB? That all I can really test for is free ketones, not what my demand or ability to use them is. However with the blood sugar being in an acceptable range for insulin repair basically KCKO?

PS Thanksgiving went slightly away from keto. That is all foods were keto approved but not the quantities. about 100-140 g of keto carbs a day. BHB on last day dropped to .1 and Bg was 98 2 hours into the morning ( usual 1.1 BHB & 87 BG)

Thanks